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crashed on grizzly last night..

RhythmRider said:
Just to clarify, going to the track and learning how to lean the bike as far as it'll go doesn't make it any safer to do that on the street.
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Totally disagree. For some you might be right, but for others, you're wrong. I am a much safer rider when I'm out there leaning way off and leaning the bike hard than I am when I'm trying to take it easy, use moderate lean angles, and ride overly defensively. For me at least, if I want to ride my best, I have to ride fairly aggressively, not necessarily in terms of speed, but definately in terms of lean angle and corner entry. I can't get in any sort of ryhthm or get any real feel for the bike if I stay on top of it and ride it too easy.

The fact is, there are so many layers of skill/safety in motorcycling that it's very difficult to make generalizations about what is safe for everyone.
 
Okay, I see your point. I have a friend who's the same way. He rides hard on the hill all the time, and it seems like the only time he ever crashes is when he's not pushing it. It's more comfortable to ride the bike that way and gives the rider a better sense of control. However, the street offers a lot of variety in surfaces and hazards that can change at any time. Maybe a truck breaks down around a blind corner. Maybe some light gravel gets tossed on the road just at the spot where you enter a turn, but since it's the same stuff they use to pave the road with, you can't see it. Trust me, I have run over this shit. I have stood over it and looked directly at it and still had trouble seeing the shit.

The simple fact of the matter is that when you're out on a race track, you can focus on your lines, body position, throttle use, and you don't have to worry about shit changing on you. That bump in turn 2 is always going to be the same. When you ride on the street, you have to give your self enough time to see the road before you ride on it. That's why it's so difficult to go fast and safe at the same time on the street. The faster you go, the less time you give yourself to process information before you commit to a turn, and let's face it, at any decent speed, there is some level of commitment and trust involved. Trust that the road will be the same as it was last time; trust that there won't be a deer standing smack in the middle of the corner when you come around it with your knee on the ground; trust that you will be able to react appropriately if something like that does happen. It's up to every rider to decide how much trust to give. More trust means more risk and a higher probability of crashing.

I'm not knocking the way you ride, 'cause I ride the same way, and I love it, but I don't think it's safer.
 
RhythmRider said:
Okay, I see your point. I have a friend who's the same way. He rides hard on the hill all the time, and it seems like the only time he ever crashes is when he's not pushing it. It's more comfortable to ride the bike that way and gives the rider a better sense of control. However, the street offers a lot of variety in surfaces and hazards that can change at any time. Maybe a truck breaks down around a blind corner. Maybe some light gravel gets tossed on the road just at the spot where you enter a turn, but since it's the same stuff they use to pave the road with, you can't see it. Trust me, I have run over this shit. I have stood over it and looked directly at it and still had trouble seeing the shit.
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So have I. At full lean. And stayed upright.

My point is simply that different people ride safely in different ways. And generalizing based on style is inaccurate. I guarantee that I am riding safer to both myself and others on the road at full lean than most newbies are who are barely leaning through the turn.

My advice to anyone is this. Work on removing emotion from your riding and introducing logic. Once you really accept that the safest way through the corner is trusting the grip is there, being smooth and looking through the turn (rather than focusing on the bad thing), you will be a better, safer rider. The probability of surviving is higher doing the opposite of what most newbies do. Think logically, accept the probabilities, and just lean the mo fo and stay on the gas. For anyone who doesn't believe me, I say just watch one of those Dunlop test videos where there test rider is riding around dragging a knee at speed on street tires on WET pavement. Folks, if the tires will grip there, they'll handle just about anything the street will throw at you. As long as you don't fuck it up...
 
Archimedes said:
the safest way through the corner is trusting the grip is there, being smooth and looking through the turn (rather than focusing on the bad thing)
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You can't trust the street to be grippy. You have to doubt it, not trust it. Trust begets trust, and if you keep trusting, you'll become complacent, and that'll bite you in the ass.

For anyone who doesn't believe me, I say just watch one of those Dunlop test videos where there test rider is riding around dragging a knee at speed on street tires on WET pavement. Folks, if the tires will grip there, they'll handle just about anything the street will throw at you. As long as you don't fuck it up...
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Wet pavement and gravel are not the same. Wet pavement is fun to ride on... gravel is not.
 
If you wish to be picky about semantecs, that is true. However if you are going into a turn a bit faster than you're comfortable with, it becomes time to trust that (barring gravel or sand... etc) that the grip is available. Tires have remarkable available grip.

The comment about water and gravel is accurate though
 
RhythmRider said:
You can't trust the street to be grippy. You have to doubt it, not trust it. Trust begets trust, and if you keep trusting, you'll become complacent, and that'll bite you in the ass.
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Alls I'm a sayin' is it comes down to simple probabilities. If you lean it hard, trust the tires and stay on the gas, the probability you will make it through unscathed is higher (much higher) than if you try to slow down/stop once you've committed to a corner. Your odds are better. Riders that learn that and are able to apply it in a pressure situation are much better riders than those that don't.

And in addition to probabilities, the nature of the crash that results from such an approach, should it occur, is much more likely to be less serious. I'd much prefer to lowside out of a turn I tried to make than stand a bike up and run wide into a fixed object.

Every time I get a chance to talk to a serious, experienced racer, one of the questions I always ask them is how they handle getting in too hot and whether they ever give up on a turn. To a man I've heard the same thing from all of them. Never, ever give up on the turn. Just lean it in and look where you hope to go. Lowside is better than the alternative.
 
austenmount said:
so last night I was trying to keep up with a guy who is faster and more skilled than I. I came into a corner too hot, got scared, locked up the rear brake, carried a skid at least 12 yards until I hit the dirt. At first I thought I was giong to lowside, but at the last minute the bike threw me off the high side. I walked away, albeit with a sprained foot, and rode my bike home with no apparent damage other than some minor scrapes and bent bars.

What should I have done a) once I knew i was coming in too hot? b) once I had already locked the rear brake up?

Any other comments? One guy said I shouldnt have even had my foot near the rear brake . . . i think ill post a different thread on correct cornering technique...
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Been there and did exactly what you did, been there and saved it too. So hopefully all the advise is first hand knowledge. I know that you can't really practice this, it involves going faster than comfortable then braking and leaning farther than comfortable. When are you ever going to risk that?
It is faith, but more faith in the turning ability of the bike than the brakes. The rear brake does more harm than good in panic stops, try modulating anything with your feet? Most times it just locks and slides sideways. What you want is some front brake, not so much that it stands the bike up, then lean. You should slow a bit going through this, and as you slow, the bike can be leaned less. Tell yourself to lean and make it, if you half to go all the way to the ground do it. I'll take a lowside before a highside anyday.

You were 2 strikes down before you even got to the corner, be smart enough to recognize getting sucked in, and give up the chase. We have know idea about other riders, he could have been the Grizzly Peak hot lap champion.
 
Ok, I think I misunderstood you. I totally agree with your last post. I was talking about a general approach to riding. I think it's generally safer to ride more conservatively than more aggressively. But there's really nothing you can do about it once you're already going into a turn too hot. At that point you better stay on the gas and lean that mofo. The point I was trying to make is that it's hard to get into a turn too fast when you are respecting your sight-lines and the fact that road conditions are variable.
Archimedes said:
Alls I'm a sayin' is it comes down to simple probabilities. If you lean it hard, trust the tires and stay on the gas, the probability you will make it through unscathed is higher (much higher) than if you try to slow down/stop once you've committed to a corner. Your odds are better. Riders that learn that and are able to apply it in a pressure situation are much better riders than those that don't.

And in addition to probabilities, the nature of the crash that results from such an approach, should it occur, is much more likely to be less serious. I'd much prefer to lowside out of a turn I tried to make than stand a bike up and run wide into a fixed object.

Every time I get a chance to talk to a serious, experienced racer, one of the questions I always ask them is how they handle getting in too hot and whether they ever give up on a turn. To a man I've heard the same thing from all of them. Never, ever give up on the turn. Just lean it in and look where you hope to go. Lowside is better than the alternative.
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austenmount, I think a good drill for you would be to go from corner to corner by rolling on and off the gas and not using the brakes unless you have to. This will teach you how to judge your corner entrances better and ride smoother. Once you get pretty fast just using the throttle to set your speed, then you can accelerate harder on corner exits and use the brakes before entering corners.
 
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RhythmRider said:
But there's really nothing you can do about it once you're already going into a turn too hot. At that point you better stay on the gas and lean that mofo.
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That only gets you a crash further down the road.
 
Ehh, at that point it's really just debating the probability of getting owned by a car after taking one action over the other. It is really dependent on the individual situation, so I guess my saying that you should just lean and pray was a little hasty, but you should definitely not give up.
 
I'm very glad you were able to walk and ride away. There are some good tips that I've read here. Read them again and again, and remember and practice :thumbup I ride in the hills alot starting in Oakland. Some parts can sneak up on a rider if your not paying attention. And as a nubee, discipline your self till you get more experiance :ride Following an experienced rider in the twisty can get you in trouble. Again, I'm glad your okay :teeth
 
Recap what you've learned/ done wrong and how you'd do it differently now, please.
 
Slow down.. It's a public road not a race track.
Wanna go fast? Take it to the track. You will improve your skills and you have a better chance to walk away from a crash (no oncoming traffic , trees, etc).
 
Here's to all who have said this (or alluded to it)...
Look where you want to go.

The way you describe things is that you were watching the "dirt" as you call it, 12 yards down the road. This is where you ended up.

Next time your best bet when you are coming in too hot is turn your head and look to the left/right down the road where you want to go and you will most likely end up there (instead of in the dirt, or cliff, or rocks).
 
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