Questions for Keith Code - Round Two

twitchmonitor said:

Keith:

I just cornerworked at your CSS Streets event (4/23-24). It was my first time at that track and I had a really tough time with the 12-13-14 series of corners, in both clockwise and counterclockwise orientations.

I was riding a stock-engined EX500 with Keihin CR flatslide carbs, which means that in order to not bog the engine down, I have to keep it above 4500 RPM at least. More RPM provide smoother power. In first gear, I was going through at about 6000 RPM and the the bike felt faster than I wanted it to be and I was running wide. Less RPM and the rear got destabilized as the engine started to deliver bursts of power instead of smooth power. In one of my low RPM attempts (going the "right way" around the track) I actually lowsided the bike exiting 14. I also had trouble because in the "wrong" orientation I was coming off turn 1 in 3rd, and had to drop down to 1st, resulting in an unstable rear end.

In the middle of my second day I broke my shifter and was stuck in 2nd gear for 3 sessions. This actually helped with those corners, but I had to feather the clutch to keep from bogging the engine.

After 2 days of focusing on those corners (among many other things!) I still didn't feel like I understood them at all.

Do you have any feedback?

(I just signed up for your Sears event in Sept. but figured this was a good place to ask about Streets).

Thanks,
David.

Click to expand...

David,

You gave me a tough problem. Without seeing what you were doing I'm afraid it would be impossible to cover all the problems that the 12/13/14 sequence has to offer, I'd just be shooting in the dark and I don't like to do it.

One thing though, if the bike doesn't respond well to the throttle it would make that super tight section pretty much impossible for anyone.

Keith

Keith,

I didn't search the entire thread for this topic, but can you enlighten us,, or at least speculate as to the hanging the inside leg off the bike entering a turn like Rossi and a few others are doing these days. It's usually only in left turns, but I noticed in rights too Sunday.

Is there any real reason/benefit to doing this?

Jet City said:

Keith,

I didn't search the entire thread for this topic, but can you enlighten us,, or at least speculate as to the hanging the inside leg off the bike entering a turn like Rossi and a few others are doing these days. It's usually only in left turns, but I noticed in rights too Sunday.

Is there any real reason/benefit to doing this?

Click to expand...

I am interested in hearing your perspective too. I have had a few good sources state it is supposed to add stability under heavy braking while loading for a turn, but not quite sure of the subtle movements we may not see.

Inside leg

Jet City said:

Keith,

I didn't search the entire thread for this topic, but can you enlighten us,, or at least speculate as to the hanging the inside leg off the bike entering a turn like Rossi and a few others are doing these days. It's usually only in left turns, but I noticed in rights too Sunday.

Is there any real reason/benefit to doing this?

Click to expand...

Jet City,

The one thing that a rider does with his left foot on entering a left hand corner is reposition it after changing gears to prevent it from dragging on the pavement. Who knows how it started for Rossi. He did mention braking but also said he wasn't sure if it really was effective or not. If he doesn't know then no one does.

Meanwhile, it has certainly become fashionable, that is the other thing that we know for sure.

That it could help under braking escapes me.

Keith:

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'll look into the carburation and hopefully make it to one of your events at the Streets.

David.

Keith Code said:

David,

You gave me a tough problem. Without seeing what you were doing I'm afraid it would be impossible to cover all the problems that the 12/13/14 sequence has to offer, I'd just be shooting in the dark and I don't like to do it.

One thing though, if the bike doesn't respond well to the throttle it would make that super tight section pretty much impossible for anyone.

Keith

Click to expand...

Keith Code said:

That it could help under braking escapes me.

Click to expand...

I was testing on my Supermoto bike @ Rialto and there was a fast left turn that If I put my foot out I railed into it, but when I attempted the turn roadrace style the front end chattered under braking. I don't know if there is any relation to the two. I felt I had similar weight and speed over the front end both styles.

twitchmonitor said:

Keith:

I just cornerworked at your CSS Streets event (4/23-24). It was my first time at that track and I had a really tough time with the 12-13-14 series of corners, in both clockwise and counterclockwise orientations.

I was riding a stock-engined EX500 with Keihin CR flatslide carbs, which means that in order to not bog the engine down, I have to keep it above 4500 RPM at least. More RPM provide smoother power. In first gear, I was going through at about 6000 RPM and the the bike felt faster than I wanted it to be and I was running wide. Less RPM and the rear got destabilized as the engine started to deliver bursts of power instead of smooth power. In one of my low RPM attempts (going the "right way" around the track) I actually lowsided the bike exiting 14. I also had trouble because in the "wrong" orientation I was coming off turn 1 in 3rd, and had to drop down to 1st, resulting in an unstable rear end.

In the middle of my second day I broke my shifter and was stuck in 2nd gear for 3 sessions. This actually helped with those corners, but I had to feather the clutch to keep from bogging the engine.

After 2 days of focusing on those corners (among many other things!) I still didn't feel like I understood them at all.

Do you have any feedback?

(I just signed up for your Sears event in Sept. but figured this was a good place to ask about Streets).

Thanks,
David.

Click to expand...

Dylan here. One thing to remember about 12,13 and 14 is that they get progressively slower. 12 is fastest, 13 is slower by about 8 mph at apex and 14 is about 2mph slower than 13 at apex. At least that is what my gps timer said last time I had it fitted on a bike at that track.

Carrying a brisk constant speed through those three turns does not work well in other words.

hitman5532 said:

I focused on the point where I wanted to have my braking COMPLETED by

Click to expand...

AHH it makes so much sense! I'm able to brake the best coming up to stop lights when I know where I want to have my braking done! How did I miss this obvious concept?! Man that is a total mindfuck. Gonna be fun to try out on the track.

Out of State Bike to register in CA

Hi All:
Just purchased a bike from out of state, 2005 with 6,000 miles on it. Attempted to register it in my name at the DMV, they said "Whoa, you can't do that, since the bike has no CA smog." WTF!? They then said that unless I qualify for an exemption....and listed a few. Seems that the only one that may apply is if the bike is more than 2 yrs old AND has over 7,500 miles.

Ever here of this one, and if so, can you offer some advice (such as drive it to get over 7,500 miles on the odometer).

Is there a reason you are wasting this thread with this?

How do I start a new thread then?

S83 said:

How do I start a new thread then?

Click to expand...

Use search, dozens of threads on this topic in archives,

Search DMV smog

Here's one for ya.

Keith Code is an internationally-known expert on getting bikes around a racetrack or a winding road in a hurry, check out his books or classes when you're ready.

Good Morning Keith,
I'm a relatively new rider and a new racer. I'm racing a 1000rr which is way beyond me simply to gain race experience this year. 50 trackdays and 3 rounds of racing later - I've lost the front twice on the brakes. Both times I missed the feedback and it felt like a light switch shutting off.

How can I invest in myself with the biggest payoff? I desperately want to learn more about what the front is telling me without bouncing down the track. I have so much to be gained laptime wise if I can learn to read the front. <-- (I think)

I have treated your books as religion - I love your stuff. Clear, concise and extremely helpful. I reviewed TOTW2 (steering) just recently for the 10th time and feel as if I steer with the rear pretty effectively...it's just that damn pesky front at the moment!

Many thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Chris Dove

WoW!!!! (most overused word ever, i know....) This thread is full of golden nuggets of information. Thank you Keith.

Questions:

1.) I just finished reading Total Control: High-Performance Street Riding Techniques, and I think it was in his chapter on body position he says that although many swear by weighting the outside peg (when leaned over), he has never seen evidence proving it gives you better traction or any other performance advantages. He then backs it up, by giving an exmaple of a racer who doesnt do it . Rich Oliver at his school emphasizes this when "backing it in" (on dirtbikes). Lee parks then finishes with "Do it the way that it makes you feel the best".

What is your opinion?

2.) When/Where can I buy the Twist of the Wrist II DVD that you mentioned you were making earlier in this Thread?

Dove said:

Good Morning Keith,
I'm a relatively new rider and a new racer. I'm racing a 1000rr which is way beyond me simply to gain race experience this year. 50 trackdays and 3 rounds of racing later - I've lost the front twice on the brakes. Both times I missed the feedback and it felt like a light switch shutting off.

How can I invest in myself with the biggest payoff? I desperately want to learn more about what the front is telling me without bouncing down the track. I have so much to be gained laptime wise if I can learn to read the front. <-- (I think)

I have treated your books as religion - I love your stuff. Clear, concise and extremely helpful. I reviewed TOTW2 (steering) just recently for the 10th time and feel as if I steer with the rear pretty effectively...it's just that damn pesky front at the moment!

Many thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Chris Dove

Click to expand...

Chris,

Copy that, bouncing down the track can be distracting.

Where did you crash and what were you doing exactly?

Keith

Maverik4k said:

WoW!!!! (most overused word ever, i know....) This thread is full of golden nuggets of information. Thank you Keith.

Questions:

1.) I just finished reading Total Control: High-Performance Street Riding Techniques, and I think it was in his chapter on body position he says that although many swear by weighting the outside peg (when leaned over), he has never seen evidence proving it gives you better traction or any other performance advantages. He then backs it up, by giving an exmaple of a racer who doesnt do it . Rich Oliver at his school emphasizes this when "backing it in" (on dirtbikes). Lee parks then finishes with "Do it the way that it makes you feel the best".

What is your opinion?

2.) When/Where can I buy the Twist of the Wrist II DVD that you mentioned you were making earlier in this Thread?

Click to expand...

Maverik4k,

What Rich is talking about is a totally different thing. On dirt bikes you get the bike over on the knobbyside of the tire and you want it to be loose. When you use the outside peg it improves control because you let the bike swivel and squirm beneath you instead of fighting it and crashing. I didn't race that much dirt track when I was a kid but I've trained with Doug Chandler and Wayne Rainey and they were both really good at it. You can also look at Speedway bikes and how they use that very low outside peg to control the slides and stay loose on the bike.

Meanwhile, on road bikes there isn't anything to back up the notion that weighting the outside peg gives better traction but if you hear a top racer say so, all of a sudden it becomes a fact. There are many practical uses for the pegs but that doesn't seem to be one of them. By the way, I believe that it was Mick Doohan who first said that it did help give more traction. He was also the one who started the thumb brake fad which died out about as fast as it came in. In fact, if you look at rear brake use, it has pretty well died out. As you probably noticed, Rossi is now taking his fight foot off the bike entering right hand turns! Definitely no rear brake being used by him.

The Twist II DVD is still in final editing, I'm just cutting a trailer right now and the computer animations are being worked on. I'm hoping to release it first in the UK this Summer when I'm over at our schools in Europe but we should have a trailer at Moto GP in our booth there. Come on by.

Hope I answered your question.

Keith

Keith Code said:

Chris,

Copy that, bouncing down the track can be distracting.

Where did you crash and what were you doing exactly?

Keith

Click to expand...

Hey Keith,
1. Turn 2 @Laguna - trailed too deep and lost the front right at initial turn-in.
2. Chicane at the end of the little back straight @Infineon - I was entering the chicane (right) and on the brakes late, I tipped in and it went away. I was being passed up the inside and I feel like I may have touched a hair more front brake trying to allow a hair more room for the fast guy passing me.

*I just had the stock front forks refreshed after nearly 30,000 miles prior to last weekend's AFM races. Night/day difference - I think that I can read the front a LOT better now but am still highly interested in drills to gain more confidence in the front end of my motorcycle.

Cheers,
Chris

Front end confidence

Dove said:

Hey Keith,
1. Turn 2 @Laguna - trailed too deep and lost the front right at initial turn-in.
2. Chicane at the end of the little back straight @Infineon - I was entering the chicane (right) and on the brakes late, I tipped in and it went away. I was being passed up the inside and I feel like I may have touched a hair more front brake trying to allow a hair more room for the fast guy passing me.

*I just had the stock front forks refreshed after nearly 30,000 miles prior to last weekend's AFM races. Night/day difference - I think that I can read the front a LOT better now but am still highly interested in drills to gain more confidence in the front end of my motorcycle.

Cheers,
Chris

Click to expand...

Chris,

You solved the feel part of it but you still want to solve it? It sounds as though you went through an entire race weekend with no incidents, correct?

1. How were your lap times compared to when your front end was still in need of tuning?

2. How far off the pace are you for the class you are running? What are your times, what are the leader's times?

3. Are you looking for drills to improve your lap times or just to be more aggressive with your trailbraking? They aren't the same goal.

Over,

Keith

PS: Never compromise or change your line for faster riders unless you do it at least a couple of seconds before they catch you. Bad habit and it is dangerous.

Keith Code said:

Chris,

You solved the feel part of it but you still want to solve it? It sounds as though you went through an entire race weekend with no incidents, correct?

1. How were your lap times compared to when your front end was still in need of tuning?

2. How far off the pace are you for the class you are running? What are your times, what are the leader's times?

3. Are you looking for drills to improve your lap times or just to be more aggressive with your trailbraking? They aren't the same goal.

Over,

Keith

PS: Never compromise or change your line for faster riders unless you do it at least a couple of seconds before they catch you. Bad habit and it is dangerous.

Click to expand...

Understood on changing my line - it was a poor decision.

I did make it through a race weekend without incident and I felt as if I got everything going in the right direction. I shaved significant time off my personal best and I'm roughly 10 seconds off the front of the pack. At times I forget that the goal was to finish races this year and gain race experience. I'm doing just that and I need to keep perspective. Oddly enough - chatting with you helped me realize that. Thank you Keith - I'll keep reading and applying.

Cheers,
Chris

Dove said:

Understood on changing my line - it was a poor decision.

I did make it through a race weekend without incident and I felt as if I got everything going in the right direction. I shaved significant time off my personal best and I'm roughly 10 seconds off the front of the pack. At times I forget that the goal was to finish races this year and gain race experience. I'm doing just that and I need to keep perspective. Oddly enough - chatting with you helped me realize that. Thank you Keith - I'll keep reading and applying.

Cheers,
Chris

Click to expand...

Chris,

That is smart. It's just way too easy to get caught up in the testosterone of racing and forget that, with very rare exception, riders don't reach anything close to their potential in one season of racing.

When I began working with Scott Russell for Rob Muzzy's factory Kawasaki team in the early 90's, he was "fast" but undisciplined. Scott had been pretty much a street squid, got into club racing, had quick success for a racer beginning a career past 20 years old with no previous race experience.

That was a fun time for me. I was working with him and was able to talk Muzzy into letting him come to selected WERA/Formula USA races so I could coach him. That worked out really well but it took two seasons. The rest is world history.

Myself and our school headmaster in the UK, Andy Ibbott, have been working with Leon Camier for over 4 years. He won the British Supersport championship during that time and is now on a rocket ride superbike season.

It is interesting to see him having breakthroughs on technical skills and techniques he was exposed to years ago. Some of them never made any sense to him until this last Winter when we had him in Spain for schooling.

In other words, don't ever lose sight of the goals and don't be in a huge hurry to absorb everything. Until your technical and very basic skills are there you can't build on them, you won't progress.

Everyone is in a hurry but there are some things you cannot get by without. A rock solid confidence in yourself will only happen when those foundation pieces are there.

Keith