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Old 03-13-2018, 04:15 PM   #46
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Interesting...Vindication from an "uhhh what"! Interesting comment on the locking out of arms to resist braking forces, but I don't see how a leg off is aiding in that technique.



Not really. Call them what?
Next time you ride and are going into a hard braking corner, take your inside leg off the peg and then tell me what happens...(hint - you put more weight on your hands/arms which, if you desire, allow more braking forces to be applied)

Also Berto - where did you get that data regarding brake pressure from? My sources don't confirm that. Carbon vs steel, completely different hydraulic systems, no way comparable.

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Old 03-15-2018, 10:33 AM   #47
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Ken, I'll try it and see what happens. Things are much better attempted, then argued about...and then finding out later what's right/ wrong. Good plan.

I'll PM you offline on the other stuff. And yeah, a MotoGP is nothing much like our own sport bikes, as much as the manufacturers want to sell us that daydream.
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:18 AM   #48
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leg dangle
2016 reigning world champion, Jorge Lorenzo, doesn't use it:

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Old 07-14-2018, 08:32 PM   #49
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I look at like it this.

You use a comb to get your hair into the proper place. (Counter steering).

You weight the pegs or body steer like hairspray. Enhance the application already in place.
Thank you for stating this so concisely and understandable. I've been reading this thread shaking my head trying to figure out how to state this and you nailed it!

OP, no matter how many people claim they are "body steering", that Keith Code video makes it clear that is total BS. that's why it's called the NO BS bike.
If your bike initiates a turn as a result of hanging off/bodysteering, most likely you are unknowingly weighting the bars and actually counter steering.

My observation has been that if I don't counter steer, I don't turn. If I don't hang off, I can turn, but I need more lean angle and I don't hold my line as well.

Watching that entire Keith code DVD is probably the best thing a beginner or novice level rider can do to improve their riding and safety.

To expand on Budman's comment,
-Counter steer to initiate the turn/set lean angle.
-Hang off/bodysteer/peg weight etc... to help reduce lean angle and hold your turn radius.

Glad you are investigating this and improving your knowledge.
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Old 07-17-2018, 04:19 PM   #50
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Next time you ride and are going into a hard braking corner, take your inside leg off the peg and then tell me what happens...(hint - you put more weight on your hands/arms which, if you desire, allow more braking forces to be applied)

Ken
Took a shot and you are correct in that the bike doesn't bend into the corner as much. However, when I scoot close to the tank and sit up taller, I can achieve the same result I've found. Either way, sitting in the center of the seat and doing so allows the bike to maintain straight up and down braking. Performing a body shift and leaving the leg on starts to pull me to the inside. Taking the inside leg off the peg, while totally odd feeling, stands the bike upright again. YMMV.

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OP, no matter how many people claim they are "body steering", that Keith Code video makes it clear that is total BS. that's why it's called the NO BS bike.
If your bike initiates a turn as a result of hanging off/bodysteering, most likely you are unknowingly weighting the bars and actually counter steering.

My observation has been that if I don't counter steer, I don't turn. If I don't hang off, I can turn, but I need more lean angle and I don't hold my line as well.


To expand on Budman's comment,
-Counter steer to initiate the turn/set lean angle.
-Hang off/bodysteer/peg weight etc... to help reduce lean angle and hold your turn radius.
There's a guy on IG/ FB who's riding his Harley down Mullholand with no hands and doing fine, if a bit sloppy on the transitions. We know him from him running our suspension product and he's a decent rider as well. That being said, the amount of trail on a Harley make the effort easier than a sport bike by far. He illustrates the point that at no time does a hand need to be on bars to get a bike to change direction competently.

That being said, we should define counter steering as the mass/ momentum of the bike separating from the front wheel, where the headstock and mass dips into the corner and thus, pushes the front wheel away from the corner. This action can be accomplished by forcing the bike an attitude change with bar input (the less efficient method) or using the mass of the motorcycle and rider to the inside of the corner. Both work, one quicker (pushing a bar) with more energy/ effort and one less quick but aided with the mass of the motorcycle and thus, much easier. There's a reason people can't push on bars for 20 laps of racing at pace.

Once the tire begins it's trajectory away from the corner, it has to be pulled back towards the corner for a bike to change direction without falling over. That means in order to "steer" (something everyone leaves out of the equation), the front tire has to swing back into the corner. While a rider won't be able to resist the forces pulling the front wheel into the direction of the corner to begin the steering phase, they can slow that transition with bar input and thus, create instability in the front and lack of feel. Above all, riding a bike in such a manner requires a lot of energy and effort. Using the mass of the motorcycle is far more efficient.

I've ridden around guys that do the "Quick turn" stuff. Maybe they didn't know how to do it correctly (one was a code instructor at the time...but still may not have known), but it's one of the gnarliest things to watch when done with aggression. It was only a matter of time before these guys hit the ground in the same fashion (all of them) and it was predictable. That being said, I've hit the ground myself for different technique mishaps...but in no way is it imperative to push on bars to get a bike to turn. Turn quicker? Sure, but when done in concert with using the mass of the rider/ motorcycle, things are so much cleaner and easier.

YMMV.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:15 PM   #51
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There's a guy on IG/ FB who's riding his Harley down Mullholand with no hands and doing fine, if a bit sloppy on the transitions.
Probably no examples going up Mullholand. Motorcycles are dramatically easier to lean with body movement off the gas than while holding steady throttle. Put a throttle lock on that thing and try to steer with no hands.


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Once the tire begins it's trajectory away from the corner, it has to be pulled back towards the corner for a bike to change direction without falling over.
This is false. The rider need not do anything other than stop pushing the bars. The front wheel will point itself into the turn without further input from the rider.

If the rider does steer the front wheel into the turn farther than the wheel would go by itself, the bike stands up.
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:28 PM   #52
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... Put a throttle lock on that thing and try to steer with no hands...
Would cruise control work?
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Old 07-18-2018, 06:33 PM   #53
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Sure. Use cruise control and go ride Redwood Road with no hands.
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:00 AM   #54
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There's a guy on IG/ FB who's riding his Harley down Mullholand with no hands and doing fine, if a bit sloppy on the transitions.


...but in no way is it imperative to push on bars to get a bike to turn.

YMMV.
I see what you're saying, but I think if we really looked closely at the Harley rider, we'd find him flicking his weight to get the wheel to counter steer, not just weighting a peg and moving his body to the inside of the turn.

I appreciate and respect your response, but your last comment scares me. I'm concerned that a new rider will read it and take it heart.

I started riding without much knowledge of motorcycle physics and followed these types threads. I noticed that under 40mph I could corner without much effort, but the first time Itook a sweeping freeway on ramp at 75mph that bike got heavy fast! I also got a nice surprise of tracking out and not turning as I expected. It would have been tragic if after coming to BARF for advice, I left thinking I should weight my pegs and hang off more because; "in no way is it imperative to push on bars to get a bike to turn".

I couldn't find the Harley video, but I did find one of a one armed guy on an SV ripping up mullholand. For obvious reasons he can't hang too far off the bike. Yet he is very smooth through tight corners and I bet bar input plays a big part of that. It's worth checking out.

Last edited by 002; 07-19-2018 at 01:03 AM.. Reason: grammer
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:13 AM   #55
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Probably no examples going up Mullholand. Motorcycles are dramatically easier to lean with body movement off the gas than while holding steady throttle. Put a throttle lock on that thing and try to steer with no hands.

This is false. The rider need not do anything other than stop pushing the bars. The front wheel will point itself into the turn without further input from the rider.

If the rider does steer the front wheel into the turn farther than the wheel would go by itself, the bike stands up.
Why would a rider ordinarily NOT be rolling off the throttle (and most times, using brake) to turn the motorcycle? Your comment seems discontinuous with this entire discussion on turning a motorcycle. When is a rider going to need to steer AND stay on constant throttle? There's almost always a roll-off to get the bike to point, no matter if you're pushing on the bars or using your weight. I can only think of an emergency maneuver where roll-off would not be considered, but that's few and far between.

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Once the tire begins it's trajectory away from the corner, it has to be pulled back towards the corner for a bike to change direction without falling over. That means in order to "steer" (something everyone leaves out of the equation), the front tire has to swing back into the corner. While a rider won't be able to resist the forces pulling the front wheel into the direction of the corner to begin the steering phase, they can slow that transition with bar input and thus, create instability in the front and lack of feel. Above all, riding a bike in such a manner requires a lot of energy and effort. Using the mass of the motorcycle is far more efficient.
Here's the quote in its entirety. Taking snippets out tends to change the meaning, as it would in most cases. If you read this again without a colored perspective, you'll glean that "pulled" is tied to the word "tire" and as we know a rider cannot do anything to tire without the bars, the comment is not referring to a rider action, otherwise, I'd have said "bars", not "tire". The front tire is literally, pulled to the inside of the corner by the mass of the motorcycle, leaning into the corner. I know you seem to not respect the aspect of a motorcycle actually steering, believing it'll happen on it's own (which is true, to a degree), but as said above, a rider manipulating bar input even moderately, is working far too hard for a modern bike, much less, sport bike. The idea of not using one's body and mass of the motorcycle to aid in changing direction is at odds with current technique. That's not say bar input is not taking place, but certainly using brakes and body to turn a motorcycle is more common place on the race track, along with a modicum of bar input, depending on the corner.

Given your comment(s) above, three questions arise:

1.) How does a rider tighten their line mid corner?

2.) When does a rider know the exact moment to release bar pressure, that they've been pushing on?

3.) What happens when a rider pulls the inside bar on corner exit? Is this a technique in current use? Where and why, if so?

At some point, we really should go do a trackday and try some stuff out. I've offered over and over and over, but maybe you're not interested?

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I couldn't find the Harley video, but I did find one of a one armed guy on an SV ripping up mullholand. For obvious reasons he can't hang too far off the bike. Yet he is very smooth through tight corners and I bet bar input plays a big part of that. It's worth checking out.
We had a rider race with us who's arm was disabled and was still able to set some decent times with only one working arm. A bit unconventional, but he was pretty darn competent with the one arm thing going on. Certainly he still has the ability to maneuver the bars with one arm.

Regarding the idea that one must push on a bar to turn a motorcycle; Your description gives me the idea that several things contributed to the bike not turning and tracking out. Pushing on the bars was your lifesaver movement. On a questionable surface, that might catch you out as well. Also, I'm not advocating hanging off. That's a different conversation. I'm advocating using ones weight and the weight of the motorcycle to turn the motorcycle. This is a body/ brake combo deal, not a peg weighting/ hang off thing; even your head shifted 6" to one side will begin to steer a motorcycle. Had you been using the brakes, you'd have saved yourself a pucker moment and subsequent, emergency bar jam. IMO, given what you posted.
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:17 PM   #56
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Why would a rider ordinarily NOT be rolling off the throttle (and most times, using brake) to turn the motorcycle? Your comment seems discontinuous with this entire discussion on turning a motorcycle. When is a rider going to need to steer AND stay on constant throttle? There's almost always a roll-off to get the bike to point, no matter if you're pushing on the bars or using your weight. I can only think of an emergency maneuver where roll-off would not be considered, but that's few and far between.
We can agree that most of the time the rider should roll off before steering. I've been consistent over the years in recommending that, however there are exceptions and you named one: Evasive action. In a situation where a car moves over on you, a deer jumps into the road or whatever, the fastest way to steer is to turn the bars. Additionally, the rider had better not be confused about what the bike will do when he turns the bars.

I would guess that there are a few fast series of corners where you turn the bike without fully rolling off; 8/8a at Sonoma, 11/12/13 at t-hill, etc.

So, there are "real world" (street) situations that call for steering while the throttle is on and there are track situations where you need to change direction and rolling off is counter productive.

Given that, it's valid to point out that the effectiveness of moving body weight around drops to nearly zero when the throttle is positive.


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Here's the quote in its entirety. Taking snippets out tends to change the meaning, as it would in most cases. If you read this again without a colored perspective, you'll glean that "pulled" is tied to the word "tire" and as we know a rider cannot do anything to tire without the bars, the comment is not referring to a rider action, otherwise, I'd have said "bars", not "tire". The front tire is literally, pulled to the inside of the corner by the mass of the motorcycle, leaning into the corner. I know you seem to not respect the aspect of a motorcycle actually steering, believing it'll happen on it's own (which is true, to a degree), but as said above, a rider manipulating bar input even moderately, is working far too hard for a modern bike, much less, sport bike.
As noted above, bar input is vastly more effective at getting the bike turned than anything else you could do that avoids bar input. Said another way, it requires less effort to steer the bike using the bars than it does by moving your carcass around on the bike.

Of all the things that require expending energy on the bike, moving the body around, bracing against braking force and squeezing the brake lever rank high. Turning the bars to countersteer is a rounding error by comparison. See the one finger countersteering video above for emphasis.

With regard to the front tire needing to point into the turn, I don't disregard it but am very specific when it come to rider actions: When the countersteering is complete, the rider should stop applying pressure to the bars. That's it; that's all. In a parking lot, the rider may have to steer the front tire into a turn where the speed is low, the radius is tight and the lean angle is minimal. At anything above teetering speeds, the front tire will point onto the turn all by itself. How do you know when you don't have to point the front into the turn? When the bike doesn't feel like it's going to lose its balance and fall to the inside of the turn.

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The idea of not using one's body and mass of the motorcycle to aid in changing direction is at odds with current technique. That's not say bar input is not taking place, but certainly using brakes and body to turn a motorcycle is more common place on the race track, along with a modicum of bar input, depending on the corner.
In trying to convey to another person how to ride, the information that matters boils down to this: What body movements produce what outcomes?

Where the motorcycle is concerned, there are two fundamental things you control: Speed and direction.

The rider has six primary controls to manipulate. Five of them adjust speed; one adjusts direction. Granted, a change in speed can alter direction, but not by itself; you have to have done something else first -- the bike has to be leaned over. You're not going to steer the bike by pulling the brakes if the the bike is going straight and all you do is pull the brakes.

We all do the same basic things on the bike. For any given control action, these are the parameters:
  • Where (or when) you apply force
  • How much force you use over time
  • The direction of the force

Using those three parameters, you can describe to another rider how to operate a control and what the result will be. Why do I mention this? Because if the action we are talking about cannot be described via these parameters, we aren't discussing anything that a rider can use.

When you say "use the mass of the motorcycle" to aid in changing direction, what do you want the rider to do with it? There is nothing specific to work with.

I'll answer the below in red in-line:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Holeshot View Post
Given your comment(s) above, three questions arise:

1.) How does a rider tighten their line mid corner?

Options are: Hang off more and get upper body lower, pause roll-on, roll off, pull the brakes, countersteer. Depends on how much you need to change it, how far you're leaned over and the quality of traction. Need to tighten your line a foot? Body weight. A boulder is rolling into the road? Pause roll-on and steer it more. Out of lean angle? Hang off more and/or slow down.


2.) When does a rider know the exact moment to release bar pressure, that they've been pushing on?

When the lean angle is set how they want it. That's the bottom line.

3.) What happens when a rider pulls the inside bar on corner exit? Is this a technique in current use? Where and why, if so?

Rather than pull the inside bar, I'd rather push the outside as it's easier to control accurately and without encouraging the rider to hang onto the inside bar for support. Either way, the bike begins to stand up. The technique is in use by anyone who is getting the bike stood up on a corner exit. The bike doesn't stand up because you're winding on the throttle or due to body weight shifts.
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At some point, we really should go do a trackday and try some stuff out. I've offered over and over and over, but maybe you're not interested?
The reality of my schedule is I struggle just to get a few CSS days in each year. I'm somewhat interested, but it's not likely to happen anytime soon.


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I'm advocating using ones weight and the weight of the motorcycle to turn the motorcycle. This is a body/ brake combo deal, not a peg weighting/ hang off thing; even your head shifted 6" to one side will begin to steer a motorcycle. Had you been using the brakes, you'd have saved yourself a pucker moment and subsequent, emergency bar jam. IMO, given what you posted.
You are saying that moving your head 6 inches and braking is a more effective way to change direction than turning the bars a little more?
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Old 07-19-2018, 12:23 PM   #57
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Sure. Use cruise control and go ride Redwood Road with no hands.
I guess this is your gauge for POC?
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Old 07-19-2018, 01:00 PM   #58
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I don't know what POC is. If you're trying to make a point, how about you make it?
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:02 PM   #59
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I don't know what POC is. If you're trying to make a point, how about you make it?
No.

No point.

Just wanted to understand what is your criteria to confirm your statements and that my bike does have cruise control.

So simply, your baseline is that you want me to ride on cruise control through Redwood Road.



BTW: POC = Proof of Concept
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Old 07-19-2018, 04:08 PM   #60
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So simply, your baseline is that you want me to ride on cruise control through Redwood Road.
Be careful.
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