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Old 11-01-2018, 07:25 PM   #16
Killin_ix
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This thread is what I need. Like the OP, I've been stuck this past season working on getting quicker in the corner and not over braking.

Love the Barf educational here.
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Old 11-01-2018, 09:12 PM   #17
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Thanks guys. I understand using the brake to “set” the front on entry
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u actually need to brake to increase front grip.
Right. That’s what I was trying to get across. Thanks, Robert. And thanks Holeshot.
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Old 11-02-2018, 11:45 AM   #18
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Something more fundamental than how much brake you're carrying into the turn is that you miss apexes in several corners. It doesn't happen everywhere, but where it does happen, you're pretty consistent about it. Can you tell the difference between corners where you're hitting the apex and ones where there is room between you and the curb?
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Old 11-02-2018, 12:09 PM   #19
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Something more fundamental than how much brake you're carrying into the turn is that you miss apexes in several corners. It doesn't happen everywhere, but where it does happen, you're pretty consistent about it. Can you tell the difference between corners where you're hitting the apex and ones where there is room between you and the curb?
FWIW, there will always be 6-12" of pavement between the apex and the rider for almost all riders, up to mid pack (and even some podium ones) and about the same, if not more pavement on track-out at their extreme edge of their exit.

Most riders aren't familiar or comfortable running things right to the edge, I've found...and most don't even know they're that far out/ off until the see a video of it. I suspect it has to do with their preconceived notion(s) of where the bike and they are on the track, when their perception is actually, about 12" off or so. I also suspect these riders leave that 12" as their safety margin, not knowing their bike nor have enough experience at a higher pace.
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Old 11-02-2018, 12:51 PM   #20
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FWIW, there will always be 6-12" of pavement between the apex and the rider for almost all riders, up to mid pack (and even some podium ones) and about the same, if not more pavement on track-out at their extreme edge of their exit.
Understood. I'm interested in the ones where there is almost enough room to pass him on the inside.
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Old 11-05-2018, 02:54 PM   #21
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Understood. I'm interested in the ones where there is almost enough room to pass him on the inside.
Yeah, I have this problem as well. I think turn 2,3 and 6 are main turns where my line is way off. Turn 1 occasionally too...
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Old 11-05-2018, 03:13 PM   #22
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Yeah, I have this problem as well. I think turn 2,3 and 6 are main turns where my line is way off. Turn 1 occasionally too...
Do you have apex reference points for these turns? In order to hit a target, you need something to aim at.

If you do have these RP's, how far are you from your turn point before you look at them? If you are looking for your apex as you steer the bike, it's too late to steer accurately. It's hard to see your helmet in the video, but it did look to me like your head is turning as you steer.

You can fix this in two steps:
  1. Make sure you have an apex reference point for the turn.
  2. Look at it about a half second before you steer the bike.

In some cases, you can't see the apex from the entry. In those situations, you will need a reference point prior to the apex that tells you you're on target to hit the apex if you hit that point.
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Old 11-05-2018, 05:37 PM   #23
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Do you have apex reference points for these turns? In order to hit a target, you need something to aim at.

If you do have these RP's, how far are you from your turn point before you look at them? If you are looking for your apex as you steer the bike, it's too late to steer accurately. It's hard to see your helmet in the video, but it did look to me like your head is turning as you steer.

You can fix this in two steps:
  1. Make sure you have an apex reference point for the turn.
  2. Look at it about a half second before you steer the bike.

In some cases, you can't see the apex from the entry. In those situations, you will need a reference point prior to the apex that tells you you're on target to hit the apex if you hit that point.
I think you're absolutely right! my timing is off, I'm trying not to focus on my turn in point, and start looking at apex or RP as soon as possible, but my "as soon as possible" is quite late. Recently I picked up Keith book "Soft Science " his explanation on where and how attention should be spend explains why I have this problem - I do focus on braking(or other things) sometime too much, which obviously takes my attention from further points on track.

Thanks for tips, I'll try those on next trackday!
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Old 11-05-2018, 05:50 PM   #24
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I'd be interested to hear if it makes a difference.
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Old 11-06-2018, 12:41 AM   #25
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Understood. I'm interested in the ones where there is almost enough room to pass him on the inside.
To be frank: where on the inside and when? I say that because not all turns have a geometric apex, but they do all have a slowest part/ max lean angle part of the corner. Is that what we're talking about?

T2 at Thill is an easy one because it's a double apex. So is T7 at Sonoma. There's plenty of room to pass on the inside in those corners because being a double apex corner, there's plenty of room on the inside to fit. I'd also add that "almost enough room" IS enough room to pass. We don't need much room to get by another guy on the inside...we just need excellent front end confidence.

I write this because the theoretical and the real tend to be a blend of practical. It's not practical for a rider who's working to master controlling their motorcycle to be able to leave inches to the (geometric) apex of a corner. They just don't have enough experience to know where the bike is going to end up within inches at any given point. That's really an experience thing and they don't have enough experience, IME/ IMO.

But...I get your direction and it's a good thing to keep in their mind...however, it's practical to allow a new rider the peace of mind to not have to be inches from an apex until they've got a signifigant experience. Once again, this stuff would be awesome to bullshit and mess around with trackside, some day.

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I think you're absolutely right! my timing is off, I'm trying not to focus on my turn in point, and start looking at apex or RP as soon as possible, but my "as soon as possible" is quite late. Recently I picked up Keith book "Soft Science " his explanation on where and how attention should be spend explains why I have this problem - I do focus on braking(or other things) sometime too much, which obviously takes my attention from further points on track.

Thanks for tips, I'll try those on next trackday!
Your eyes should really be focused on "the next thing to do" and no later than you have the current thing you're doing "under control". That means your eyes don't fix on one thing ever. Moving your eyes from what's current to what's next gives you the perspective needed to know when that "turn in point" is correct. How do you know your "turn in point"? When your able to start releasing the brake lever.

If you're stuck focusing on braking too much, don't let that be the impediment to finding a good turn in point. Instead, take a shot at using your brakes to tell YOU when it's a good time to turn in, and that almost always is when you start giving away some lever.

I had some issues with motorcycle literature not containing the wording I needed to understand some of the more advanced concepts of timing/ turn in, etc. I turned to Ross Bentley after reading Code, Ienatsch, and a few other moto books. His stuff is car material, but it's $2.99 on Amazon right now and it's really good stuff, even for us moto riders. His explanations of the concepts we all use (cars and bikes) are first rate, IMO.

It's winter...reading IS about all we can do for now...
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