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Old 02-21-2017, 12:27 PM   #31
thedub
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Why does it matter as long as the bike is only running on three cylinders during the race?

If someone was trying to cheat by developing some sort of electronic means to re-enable the cylinder wouldn't it be obvious by the sound and speed of the bike?

It should be absolutely as easy and painless as possible to switch back and forth so people are encouraged to run 450 and 600 races (and pay more entry fees) on the same day if they desire.
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Old 02-21-2017, 12:32 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by thedub View Post
Why does it matter as long as the bike is only running on three cylinders during the race?

If someone was trying to cheat by developing some sort of electronic means to re-enable the cylinder wouldn't it be obvious by the sound and speed of the bike?

It should be absolutely as easy and painless as possible to switch back and forth so people are encouraged to run 450 and 600 races (and pay more entry fees) on the same day if they desire.
Exactly!

If someone was cheating it would be immediately obvious and it is testable after the race (the 30 minute protest period).

However, the AFM is cautious for good reasons, and the rules and what is allowed are slowly maturing.

So far, there has been no cheating. The rules won't be really tested until someone tries to cheat.

That will probably happen right after the talent scouts start watching the 450 grid...
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Old 02-21-2017, 12:47 PM   #33
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every rule is subject to interpretation by tech. The actual rule berbiage cane be argued for its wording, yes, but in the end, one person, the head of tech, decides how to interpret that rule.
The interpretation will be based on the intent behind the rule and , sometimes, other parameters around that intent.
Here, the intent stood as it was , for a Mechanical disablement to the engine, (now reworded as a physical change to the engine) but never was the club apprised of the intent to go to an all electronic mod, and so this was not approved.

As you know, I was involved in the rules processes for several years before you even joined the AFM.
I was, along with Dave Moss, the drive behind getting the triples into the AFM. I have a fairly reasonable understanding of the rules processes and how they work. Further, because of this, I was able to developed some good relationships with people in the fm, such as the current (and past) heads of tech.
I am not going to make shit up, nor am I going g to put words into their mouths.

So if you wish to challenge my statement, Marcus, please get something official from Tech. Your own interpretation is as meaningless as mine would be should either differ from that of tech.
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quote:Originally posted by MLohmeyer

Ya, those brake pads get pretty expensive. That's part of what I meant about racing vs. just doing track days. Why waste a perfectly good brake pad if you aren't trying to win a trophy.


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Last edited by duh_ave; 02-21-2017 at 01:07 PM..
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Old 02-21-2017, 12:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by duh_ave View Post
In other words, you're not going to check.
Nice.
I have already had extensive conversations with AFM Tech.

A number of them were today thanks to your need for drama.
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Old 02-21-2017, 12:58 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by MZarra View Post
...

So far, there has been no cheating. The rules won't be really tested until someone tries to cheat.

...
If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.
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Old 02-21-2017, 01:13 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by thedub View Post
Why does it matter as long as the bike is only running on three cylinders during the race?

If someone was trying to cheat by developing some sort of electronic means to re-enable the cylinder wouldn't it be obvious by the sound and speed of the bike?

It should be absolutely as easy and painless as possible to switch back and forth so people are encouraged to run 450 and 600 races (and pay more entry fees) on the same day if they desire.
I fully agree as well. The issue is the method(s) that are approved. And injector mod only is not one of them. This begets the issue for tech, which is how to enforce it.

The switch concept can be developed to where it would be approved. I've talked with tech and made suggestions to some of the 450 on They might developers it.
Cross Classing is huge to the growth of 450. Marcus and his family have taken huge strides and been incredible Ambassadors for 450.
My concern is that when 1/2 the grid gets DQ'd , Because of the promotion of an illegal build from within 450, the class will die.
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quote:Originally posted by MLohmeyer

Ya, those brake pads get pretty expensive. That's part of what I meant about racing vs. just doing track days. Why waste a perfectly good brake pad if you aren't trying to win a trophy.


"It's frustrating if you're a microbe that's been wandering the Universe for a million years to then die striking the surface of Europa," --Dr Gladman
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Old 02-21-2017, 01:15 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by MZarra View Post
I have already had extensive conversations with AFM Tech.

A number of them were today thanks to your need for drama.
If you followed the process, there would be no "drama", assuming drama
Means attempting to inform riders of the rules
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quote:Originally posted by MLohmeyer

Ya, those brake pads get pretty expensive. That's part of what I meant about racing vs. just doing track days. Why waste a perfectly good brake pad if you aren't trying to win a trophy.


"It's frustrating if you're a microbe that's been wandering the Universe for a million years to then die striking the surface of Europa," --Dr Gladman
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Old 02-21-2017, 01:17 PM   #38
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The Injector by-pass is legal. Has been legal and is still legal.

It is in the rulebook, it has been approved by AFM Tech and has been run by a large number of riders on the grid.

The rules were submitted for the 2016 season and approved by the Board of Directors.

If you do not like how the rules are today: Bring them to the board.

Hashing them out in text messages, on Facebook and on BARF is not going to change reality for you.
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Old 02-21-2017, 01:17 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by MZarra View Post
I have already had extensive conversations with AFM Tech.

A number of them were today thanks to your need for drama.
And?
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quote:Originally posted by MLohmeyer

Ya, those brake pads get pretty expensive. That's part of what I meant about racing vs. just doing track days. Why waste a perfectly good brake pad if you aren't trying to win a trophy.


"It's frustrating if you're a microbe that's been wandering the Universe for a million years to then die striking the surface of Europa," --Dr Gladman
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Old 02-21-2017, 04:40 PM   #40
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Just some perspective, some racers including myself are relying on the ignition by-pass to run in the 450 class in order to keep the costs down. I think if I remember correctly everyone in the 450 grid is using some sort of ignition by-pass on their bikes for the same reason I am which is costs.

That's the main sticking point for this class is to be able to run two types of bikes (450 and 600) without having two bikes and still be competitive. I am looking forward towards racing with the people I hang out with in the paddock and I will be leaning on them for help and advice.

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Old 02-23-2017, 03:23 PM   #41
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Hello everyone, I'd like join in on all this fun. I have the article with the injector bypass along with pictures, however I don't understand the modification to the secondary harness. Can someone take a picture of the bypass on the bike. Please text (646 246 9679) or email. Many thanks.
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Old 02-23-2017, 03:27 PM   #42
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Hello everyone, I'd like join in on all this fun. I have the article with the injector bypass along with pictures, however I don't understand the modification to the secondary harness. Can someone take a picture of the bypass on the bike. Please text (646 246 9679) or email. Many thanks.
Depends on your bike...

Assuming you are using an R6, you can either pull the connector out of the airbox and plug in a dummy injector or you can use a bypass sub-sub-harness that allows you to connect a 5th injector (while disabling the injector for the dead cylinder).

I have built a number of those sub-sub-harnesses and they are quite simple.

Let me know which bike you are on and we can continue the discussion.

Not going to text or email as keeping the information in this thread lets others read it and understand it
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:12 PM   #43
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Not going to text or email as keeping the information in this thread lets others read it and understand it
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Old 02-23-2017, 05:32 PM   #44
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Marc

Thanks for the help. Sorry its an R6. I bought the secondary fuel rail and have taken out the injectors. Also have on hand the 1/4 ID fuel tubing to make the dummy fuel loop.
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Old 02-23-2017, 07:51 PM   #45
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Marc

Thanks for the help. Sorry its an R6. I bought the secondary fuel rail and have taken out the injectors. Also have on hand the 1/4 ID fuel tubing to make the dummy fuel loop.
Ok, R6

You have two options. You can open the top of the airbox and thread the cylinder's shower injector connector out of the airbox and plug in a dummy injector to it.

What help do you need? Sounds like you are almost there.
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