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Old 01-28-2018, 09:38 PM   #16
kuksul08
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Originally Posted by Smash Allen View Post
I bet you unconsciously weight the bars more than you realize and this is just the first time youíve been caught out. You should be able to take both hands off the bars atter lean angle is set.
I respectfully disagree. A motorcycle wants to stand up and go straight due to the inherent stability of a 2-wheeled vehicle (trail plus velocity). If you think about what it takes to make a right-hand turn, you first turn the bars left to initiate the lean, and then turn the bars right to 'catch' the bike from falling over further. This requires varying levels of force to maintain once in the turn, depending on many factors. If you were to let go, the bike would right itself and send you right off a cliff.

I don't think weight on the bars is an issue either. OP is riding a street triple which is a pretty up-right bike compared to a sport bike. Unless you mean holding on too hard, which is probably the biggest factor here.

OP my recommendation is two fold. Learn to scan the road surface better. Gravel takes on a slightly different appearance than clean pavement and not all gravel is created equal. The spots on Mt.Hamilton and Mines are extremely hard to spot, which is one reason why so many people crash on these roads. Second, stay loose. Sometimes you hit a loose patch and the bike will wiggle, but if you maintain composure, you can keep going with only a change of undies needed.
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Old 01-28-2018, 10:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by kuksul08 View Post
I respectfully disagree. A motorcycle wants to stand up and go straight due to the inherent stability of a 2-wheeled vehicle (trail plus velocity). If you think about what it takes to make a right-hand turn, you first turn the bars left to initiate the lean, and then turn the bars right to 'catch' the bike from falling over further. This requires varying levels of force to maintain once in the turn, depending on many factors. If you were to let go, the bike would right itself and send you right off a cliff.
If there isnít something wrong with the bike, like under inflated tires or ride height thatís way off, Smash is correct, if the rider is lightly rolling on the throttle. If the rider rolls off, the bike will initially stand up, then the line will tighten as the bike slows. With the rider doing nothing but rolling on the gas, the bike should hold its line.
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Old 01-28-2018, 11:17 PM   #18
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Smash could be correct in a place such as the track, with long sweeping corners at 100mph.
Tight roads like Hammy and Mines transition far too fast and often to ever really maintain or even think about that "hands free" stability. So that statement is pretty much irrelevant here...

I remember that one time a 1986 Concours showed up a fancy S1000RR on Mines
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:03 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by kuksul08 View Post
I respectfully disagree. A motorcycle wants to stand up and go straight due to the inherent stability of a 2-wheeled vehicle (trail plus velocity). If you think about what it takes to make a right-hand turn, you first turn the bars left to initiate the lean, and then turn the bars right to 'catch' the bike from falling over further. This requires varying levels of force to maintain once in the turn, depending on many factors. If you were to let go, the bike would right itself and send you right off a cliff.
I respectfully disagree with what you've written in this sentence.

At speed, you don't give the bars any force to the right to "catch" it from falling over further, it's all pressure pushing forward on the right bar - what you're calling turning the bars to the left. Try riding one-handed in a turn and see which way you're applying pressure to the bar.

That being said, the final comment about if you let go it will stand right up would always be the case except that some bikes, at some speeds will fall further into the turn if you let go, not stand up. I had a Ducati ST2 that would fall further into the turn below 25 mph if you let off. It didn't do that at higher speed, but it definitely did it for me at that speed. Might have been the tires on that particular bike...
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Old 01-29-2018, 09:13 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by FreeRyde View Post
Smash could be correct in a place such as the track, with long sweeping corners at 100mph.
Tight roads like Hammy and Mines transition far too fast and often to ever really maintain or even think about that "hands free" stability. So that statement is pretty much irrelevant here...

I remember that one time a 1986 Concours showed up a fancy S1000RR on Mines
Road/Surface differences do not change the fundamentals, just the degree of application. If he were light on the bars the front would have wiggled and there would be no thread to talk about.

I remember that day fondly I always appreciate a tow, especially from a local
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Old 01-29-2018, 11:52 AM   #21
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Here's my analysis based on my post-mortem and the BARF's collective wisdom:
  • Cause: bar input over slippy patch --> front tire washout --> bike and rider go splat
  • Reason: poor choice of line for conditions and turn. Inside tire track = tighter line = more lean; upcoming decreasing radius = additional bar input. Speed may have been a factor
May be hubris, but I don't think I was excessively yoinking on the bars. I (want to) believe I was providing the inputs required for the line, but chose the wrong line. . .

Takeaways:
  • Revert to wide entry / late apexing, including on right turns
  • Never get complacent about road surface
  • Others?
Thanks for the inputs, all.
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Old 01-29-2018, 12:10 PM   #22
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Takeaways:
  • Revert to wide entry / late apexing, including on right turns
  • Never get complacent about road surface
  • Others?
Get all braking done before leaning into the turn, but it sounds like you were already doing that.
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:18 PM   #23
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Gotta throw in there that I'm pretty impressed by Glooey's openness to the dogpile. I see so many people who saying "fuckin' gravel" and walk away, or other magic outside their control. It's a tough paradigm to take when you ask "How did I fuck up?"

I suck at it, and it takes WORK for me to do that.
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:38 PM   #24
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Gotta throw in there that I'm pretty impressed by Glooey's openness to the dogpile.
I agree with you.
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Old 01-29-2018, 02:44 PM   #25
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Get all braking done before leaning into the turn, but it sounds like you were already doing that.
In this situation, there was no braking involved.

I practice trail braking on the street, but only in limited situations where the road surface is clean/consistent (and emergencies).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MapleRoad View Post
Gotta throw in there that I'm pretty impressed by Glooey's openness to the dogpile. I see so many people who saying "fuckin' gravel" and walk away, or other magic outside their control. It's a tough paradigm to take when you ask "How did I fuck up?"

I suck at it, and it takes WORK for me to do that.
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I agree with you.
Aw, shucks.

Seriously, though, I see this as a public service: With my limited experience and skills, I appreciate any/all learnings, especially if I can get it from SOMEONE ELSE'S mistakes / accidents. I'm assuming riders at / below my level of experience have a similar view.

Plus, if this lowside's going to cost me a few hundred $$ in replacement parts and gear, we better get SOMETHING out of it besides some cool pics.

Cheers.
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Old 01-29-2018, 02:59 PM   #26
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Most seem to only focus on picking the line to avoid gravel. What about how to handle the slide (front, rear, or both) when you hit gravel for some reason? Hitting gravel and sliding doesn't mean you have to go down.
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Old 01-29-2018, 03:10 PM   #27
glooey
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You mean like this?

My lowside felt like <0.5 seconds from loss-of-control to on-the-deck. I'm getting old, but I think I still have reasonable reflexes. I have no idea how I could have saved this one. MM, on the other hand. . .
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Old 01-29-2018, 04:28 PM   #28
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You can save a low-side with a sharp kick to the ground, but it takes sharp reflexes and there's a list of "it depends on ..." to go with it.
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Old 01-29-2018, 04:43 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Smash Allen View Post
I bet you unconsciously weight the bars more than you realize and this is just the first time youíve been caught out. You should be able to take both hands off the bars atter lean angle is set.
This, you should have been at the neutral point at that part of the turn and starting to feed in the power. My guess is that steering input was still being applied and the front found it's limit and tucked.
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Old 01-29-2018, 04:54 PM   #30
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You mean like this?

My lowside felt like <0.5 seconds from loss-of-control to on-the-deck. I'm getting old, but I think I still have reasonable reflexes. I have no idea how I could have saved this one. MM, on the other hand. . .
No, nothing like that for us normal riders.

I think the throttle is the key in dealing with slides. Did you chop the throttle upon sliding, sort of neutral, or hold it open with a purpose?

I slid on gravel a dozen times on bikes including DRZ400sm, SV650, ZX-10R, Multistrada 1000, Speed Triple. Most of the times I didn’t or couldn’t see the gravel, but I've never gone down from those slides. Sometimes it was over before I could react, sometimes it was worse and I had to do some steering corrections (steer into the slide), but the key was to hold the throttle open steadily, or to open it up a bit more. It’s mostly muscle memory, but I also visualize it this way:

- Keep the wheels spinning for gyro-stability.

- In a front slide or 2-wheel slide, maintain or increase throttle. Keep the bike moving to allow the front to plow/slide thru the debris to regain traction. If you allow the bike to lose speed during the slide, it’ll flop down instantly.

- On low-friction surfaces, finish all the braking before the turn, then power thru the turn. When you start sliding, you want to be accelerating (positive throttle) to maintain momentum, not decelerating (coasting or braking) to lose momentum.

Last edited by Gary856; 01-29-2018 at 07:16 PM..
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