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Old 11-21-2017, 10:13 AM   #31
Smash Allen
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Correct, where you left off your brakes and how you let off the brakes is the key......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6sW5Ee7YhI&t=2s
Hi Ken,

Thanks for the post and for what you are doing to improve our sport

Having an example of brake timing is great, if only there was a rear facing green “throttle light”!

Here is a recent one of you at thunderhill east. That brake light is helpful, is it very sensitive to your lever movement? As soon as the lever moves the light engages? Or is it more pressure based and thus delayed slightly?

A good exercise seems to be following along these videos and duplicating your brake timing and scoring myself per corner. My turn 3 is pretty bad due to my misunderstanding of front grip related to loaded vs unloaded tire combined with an off camber corner.


youtu.be/7L2zeD0bvjs
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:24 AM   #32
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my experience is that the light will come on a little later than actual brake applied and go off a bit sooner than fully released because there is built in play from lever to switch.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Smash Allen View Post
...Having an example of brake timing is great, if only there was a rear facing green “throttle light”! ...
You don't need one: it's when the brake light goes off. Ken isn't coasting through the corner with no inputs to the speed controls. As soon as he's off the brake, he's back on the throttle.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:38 AM   #34
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so i had a bit of an epiphany recently

i noticed that i am off the brakes too early in every vehicle i operate...under the assumption that an unloaded tire has more grip available for turning but forgetting the amount of grip lost when a tire is unloaded vs loaded...i'm basically always pushing the front...trailing to apex-ish feels so foreign but i can tell there is more grip now...faster with no wheel slip...this is also why i wasn't getting faster with go karts! the difference a few feet makes!
its pretty awesome how deep u can go on freeway on/off ramps w/ a vanilla compact car. the tires squeal if you are off the brakes. but hold them on just a little bit and the car just rails.

IMO, this one of the biggest disservices that standard vehicle training, word of mouth, and now forum word-vomit has done for motorcycle track riding. this idea seems to be ingrained into our minds from day 1. the classic traction circle, 100 traction pts, dont brake and lean at the same time, etc etc. its mostly wrong today when u really get into the nuisances of maximizing traction on the track.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:33 AM   #35
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my experience is that the light will come on a little later than actual brake applied and go off a bit sooner than fully released because there is built in play from lever to switch.

We modified the switch to come on just as the lever is engaged.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:35 AM   #36
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You don't need one: it's when the brake light goes off. Ken isn't coasting through the corner with no inputs to the speed controls. As soon as he's off the brake, he's back on the throttle.

Here is one with data....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZZXc7jztQ0
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:10 AM   #37
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We modified the switch to come on just as the lever is engaged.
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Old 11-22-2017, 10:43 AM   #38
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its pretty awesome how deep u can go on freeway on/off ramps w/ a vanilla compact car. the tires squeal if you are off the brakes. but hold them on just a little bit and the car just rails.

IMO, this one of the biggest disservices that standard vehicle training, word of mouth, and now forum word-vomit has done for motorcycle track riding. this idea seems to be ingrained into our minds from day 1. the classic traction circle, 100 traction pts, dont brake and lean at the same time, etc etc. its mostly wrong today when u really get into the nuisances of maximizing traction on the track.
can you generalize with a percentage how significant the grip increase is between unloaded and loaded front tires?

i wish i had been listening to ken hill's podcast series from 2009 when i started riding. then i wouldn't have this bad habit to unlearn! i can think of a couple times on the street where i had front end pushes because i was trying to get off the front brake as soon as possible to 'save' grip for turning. i should have just eased off the brake over longer period of time...

good thing this is something i can work on whenever i operate a vehicle and not just the moto.

i thought i knew how to trail brake, turns out i sort of know how to do the first part of tipping in on the brakes. the last part of letting off the brakes from 5%-0% is a skill i do not yet have...more like jumping off from 10%

Quote:
Originally Posted by khill View Post
We modified the switch to come on just as the lever is engaged.
Right on very useful tool!

Quote:
Originally Posted by khill View Post
Here is one with data....


youtu.be/LZZXc7jztQ0
There you go!! Great fun and informational to watch, can only imagine riding a Graves R6

I wonder what the throttle graph looks like through T7 and T8 with an s1000rr or similar. I'm thinking either 1) full open with a small drop in throttle for direction through T7 and a bigger drop of throttle for direction through T8 or 2) full open with a small drop in throttle for direction through T7 and a bit of brakes for direction through T8
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Old 11-23-2017, 06:53 AM   #39
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" full open with a small drop in throttle for direction through T7 and a bit of brakes for direction through T8"

Correct!
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