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Old 01-10-2019, 04:55 PM   #1
KC@ BRG Racing
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Unhappy 2000 Busa and there gravity battery caught fire

Has anyone else out there in bike land had the Busa with a brand new gravity battery catch fire all by itself?
Had our customers 2001 200 hp+ Hayabusa on the Dyno, dialing in the fuel and timing, got to a stopping point, pulled the bike off the Dyno, about ten minutes later sitting in the middle of the shop and there are flames coming out of the seat.



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Old 01-10-2019, 05:22 PM   #2
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Yep, seen it. Went to a trackday with a friend. his LiIon battery went up in flames during his first session. the bike shut off. by the time the crash truck brought him back to the pits, lots of plastic was on fire. those fumes were not fun. the battery had been sitting in his garage for 6months, but this was the first use. I cant remember for sure if it was an AntiGravity battery.
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:27 PM   #3
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Wow.

I wonder whether this was simply a bad battery, or whether a bad RR caused an overvoltage situation.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:04 PM   #4
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Lithium ion batteries are tricky to design and manufacture. They are no where near as safe and reliable as lead acid batteries. On the best day. And their charging reqirements are not only different from lead acid batteries, the chargers and batteries must be designed in a certain way to minimize risk. Surprisingly, the majority of battery and charger manufacturers don't do this. Thus, what you experienced is not all that uncommon.

Also remember that the motorcycle still has a charging system designed for the needs of lead acid, not lithium ion.
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Old 01-10-2019, 07:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ST Guy View Post
Lithium ion batteries are tricky to design and manufacture. They are no where near as safe and reliable as lead acid batteries. On the best day. And their charging reqirements are not only different from lead acid batteries, the chargers and batteries must be designed in a certain way to minimize risk. Surprisingly, the majority of battery and charger manufacturers don't do this. Thus, what you experienced is not all that uncommon.

Also remember that the motorcycle still has a charging system designed for the needs of lead acid, not lithium ion.
lithium motorcycle batteries are lithium iron phosphate, not lithium ion
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:09 PM   #6
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As with any new unfamiliar technologies Lithium batteries have spawned
various alarmist tales. However I believe if used in accordance to the
manufactures standard operating procedures they're superior to their lead
acid predecessors.


I've been using Lithium Ferrous Phosphate batteries since 2009... First was
the (SpeedCell) since sold to a customer... currently Mr.RC45 is powered
by a Shoria... I think days of the old heavy lead acid battery are
number... smart money is on the new light weight Lithium Ferrous Phosphate
battery...



Quote James Parker
Are lithium-ion batteries unsafe? No, they have very few failures. But
there are many millions of such batteries in use in everything from
laptop computers to the Mars rover, so even a very low failure rate
carries costs. The point is all energy storage presents some risk.
Generally, the more energy stored, the greater the risk. Lithium-ion
batteries have about seven times the energy density of traditional
lead-acid batteries, which means you can get much more power from a
much smaller-and lighter-battery pack.

Lithium-ion technology is improving rapidly, and batteries currently
under development may eventually have about 90 times the energy
storage per unit weight of a lead-acid battery. Lithium-ion batteries
are currently being introduced to the motorcycle industry. Known as
LFP(Lithium Ferrous Phosphate) batteries, these use iron rather than
cobalt, manganese or nickel in the cathode. They have less energy
density than some other lithium-ion batteries, but offer greater
chemical and thermal stability-the chemical bonds are stronger,
offering more resistance to overheating, vibration and other abuse.

As encouraging as it is to know that LFP batteries are safer than most
other lithium ion types, overcharging, damage and abuse can still
cause problems, primarily an inability to hold a charge. Lead-acid and
lithium-ion are two entirely different technologies, with different
discharge characteristics and charging requirements. As such, it's
important to approach LFP with an open mind and read the FAQ section
of manufacturers' web sites to learn about these batteries unique-and,
for the most part,limited-requirements. Lead-acid batteries are fairly
inefficient but also tolerant of abuse. Lithium-ion batteries are
highly efficient but susceptible to damage if overcharged or allowed
to drain below a certain voltage threshold, usually in the 12V range.
Vibration and shock can damage a lithium-ion battery's internal
connections, which is why manufacturers now offer their batteries in
OEM sized cases. Batteries that are smaller than a bike's battery box
should be shimmed with foam pads to prevent shock due to unimpeded
movement.

For sportbike riders, off-road riders and owners of other
performance-oriented. machines, LFP batteries are the cheapest,
quickest and easiest way to shed pounds, but they're not for
everybody. Lithium-ion batteries are not suitable for bikes with a
parasitic draw when the key is turned off, or bikes so laden with
accessories that the battery has to supplement the bike's charging
system. Also, LFP batteries can be sluggish in the cold. Lithium-ion
batteries are lightweight but also powerful, providing improved
starting performance via a stronger spark and faster spinning starter.
But there's no free lunch: They cost two to three times as much as
lead-acid batteries and need the right kind of maintenance. With care,
they should provide good value. END

Mr.RC45 is powered by a Shoria...


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Old 01-10-2019, 10:18 PM   #7
ST Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkie View Post
lithium motorcycle batteries are lithium iron phosphate, not lithium ion
The term "lithium ion" encompasses ALL lithium based batteries, of which one type is lithium iron phosphate. There are many other types of lithium ion batteries such as lithium cobalt oxide and lithium manganese oxide. There's are other types as well. ALL are lithium ion batteries.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...of_lithium_ion
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:20 PM   #8
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I still don't understand why someone hasn't designed and marketed a replacement VRR specifically made for lithium ion batteries.
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Old 01-10-2019, 10:24 PM   #9
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And if they are so great (and they are pretty amazing), why hasn't there been a single high end sport bike, where weight is such a big factor, come from the factory with one as standard equipment? I haven't heard of one.
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:02 AM   #10
Junkie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ST Guy View Post
The term "lithium ion" encompasses ALL lithium based batteries, of which one type is lithium iron phosphate. There are many other types of lithium ion batteries such as lithium cobalt oxide and lithium manganese oxide. There's are other types as well. ALL are lithium ion batteries.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...of_lithium_ion
While the iron is an ion, when people say "lithium ion" it tends to refer to the other chemistries
Quote:
Originally Posted by ST Guy View Post
I still don't understand why someone hasn't designed and marketed a replacement VRR specifically made for lithium ion batteries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ST Guy View Post
And if they are so great (and they are pretty amazing), why hasn't there been a single high end sport bike, where weight is such a big factor, come from the factory with one as standard equipment? I haven't heard of one.
You aren't paying much attention if you think no bikes use one from the factory
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:46 AM   #11
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Vape pens, Samsung Galaxy Note7/phones, laptops, hoverboards, have something in common. The battery manufactures try to cram too much power inside of too small a device or cut corners on the manufacturing process resulting in small defects.

I think in the case of the Note7 the battery pouch had a small pinch in the corner.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/22/b...es-report.html

In addition to the design flaws, Samsung and outside experts said manufacturing problems were often directly to blame. For example, the initial fires were caused in part by a pinching of the top corner of the battery by the pouch that held it. The batteries that came from a second supplier in phones issued after the recall had defects in the welding, and some also lacked protective tape.

********

Vibration maybe...

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ns_with_li_ion

There are two basic types of battery failures. One occurs at a predictable interval-per-million and is connected with a design flaw involving the electrode, separator, electrolyte or processes. These defects often involve a recall to correct a discovered flaw. The more difficult failures are random events that do not point to a design flaw. It may be a stress event like charging at sub-freezing temperature, vibration...
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:52 AM   #12
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0_0

that sucks. I just ordered an Antigravity battery from STG two nights ago.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:40 AM   #13
KC@ BRG Racing
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I've used antie gravity in the race bikes we built for years and this is the first one the went up in flames. I understand stuff happens and I'm not saying that Lithium batteries are bad. I was curious if there was more of this kind of stuff going on. Also, all the info that has been posted looks pretty good. When I have more I need to go over it better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Little Shop View Post
As with any new unfamiliar technologies Lithium batteries have spawned
various alarmist tales. However I believe if used in accordance to the
manufactures standard operating procedures they're superior to their lead
acid predecessors.


I've been using Lithium Ferrous Phosphate batteries since 2009... First was
the (SpeedCell) since sold to a customer... currently Mr.RC45 is powered
by a Shoria... I think days of the old heavy lead acid battery are
number... smart money is on the new light weight Lithium Ferrous Phosphate
battery...



Quote James Parker
Are lithium-ion batteries unsafe? No, they have very few failures. But
there are many millions of such batteries in use in everything from
laptop computers to the Mars rover, so even a very low failure rate
carries costs. The point is all energy storage presents some risk.
Generally, the more energy stored, the greater the risk. Lithium-ion
batteries have about seven times the energy density of traditional
lead-acid batteries, which means you can get much more power from a
much smaller-and lighter-battery pack.

Lithium-ion technology is improving rapidly, and batteries currently
under development may eventually have about 90 times the energy
storage per unit weight of a lead-acid battery. Lithium-ion batteries
are currently being introduced to the motorcycle industry. Known as
LFP(Lithium Ferrous Phosphate) batteries, these use iron rather than
cobalt, manganese or nickel in the cathode. They have less energy
density than some other lithium-ion batteries, but offer greater
chemical and thermal stability-the chemical bonds are stronger,
offering more resistance to overheating, vibration and other abuse.

As encouraging as it is to know that LFP batteries are safer than most
other lithium ion types, overcharging, damage and abuse can still
cause problems, primarily an inability to hold a charge. Lead-acid and
lithium-ion are two entirely different technologies, with different
discharge characteristics and charging requirements. As such, it's
important to approach LFP with an open mind and read the FAQ section
of manufacturers' web sites to learn about these batteries unique-and,
for the most part,limited-requirements. Lead-acid batteries are fairly
inefficient but also tolerant of abuse. Lithium-ion batteries are
highly efficient but susceptible to damage if overcharged or allowed
to drain below a certain voltage threshold, usually in the 12V range.
Vibration and shock can damage a lithium-ion battery's internal
connections, which is why manufacturers now offer their batteries in
OEM sized cases. Batteries that are smaller than a bike's battery box
should be shimmed with foam pads to prevent shock due to unimpeded
movement.

For sportbike riders, off-road riders and owners of other
performance-oriented. machines, LFP batteries are the cheapest,
quickest and easiest way to shed pounds, but they're not for
everybody. Lithium-ion batteries are not suitable for bikes with a
parasitic draw when the key is turned off, or bikes so laden with
accessories that the battery has to supplement the bike's charging
system. Also, LFP batteries can be sluggish in the cold. Lithium-ion
batteries are lightweight but also powerful, providing improved
starting performance via a stronger spark and faster spinning starter.
But there's no free lunch: They cost two to three times as much as
lead-acid batteries and need the right kind of maintenance. With care,
they should provide good value. END

Mr.RC45 is powered by a Shoria...


__________________
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K.C. Owner of BRG Motorsports
kc@brgracing.com
Shop # 925-680-2560
Toll Free # 1-877-ride-brg
110 2nd Ave South Unit D 12
Pacheco Ca 94553
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:50 AM   #14
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Are any of these batteries DOT certified? That might be why you dont see them more widey used. I almost got a shorai for the Sporty but stuck with a 10 pound yellow brick.
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Old 01-11-2019, 11:05 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by ratsblast View Post
Are any of these batteries DOT certified? That might be why you dont see them more widey used. I almost got a shorai for the Sporty but stuck with a 10 pound yellow brick.
is DOT certification on batteries a thing?
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