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Old 09-14-2018, 09:23 AM   #811
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Thanks. That article is helpful.
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Old 09-14-2018, 11:15 AM   #812
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I wonder what the waivers for skydiving include.

(For the record, I'd consider a trackday to be equivalent to skydiving.)
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Old 09-14-2018, 11:30 AM   #813
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Don't land on sandbags?
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Old 09-14-2018, 11:39 AM   #814
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I wonder what the waivers for skydiving include.

(For the record, I'd consider a trackday to be equivalent to skydiving.)

If you ride like Mr Kim a parachute would be a good idea.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:40 PM   #815
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Not sure why didnt the lawyer just state what Kim was doing required him to rent out the track privately instead of "testing" his equipment on a public day - and endangering everyone else at the track that day. Ive seen Yamaha with Rossi renting out Thill West, when trackday providers had Thill East, its not impossible for a oem mfg to go out and do just that.

Imagine if he hurt someone else that day, I would bet that individual would be suing Kim after he found out he was "testing scenarios for his company" on that bike, it takes him out of the ordinary group of "track day riders" he had a different agenda trying to collaborate data for xyz vs every other rider that day.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:41 PM   #816
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Ok. I know at least one person who is covered in this manner.

It's a detail to be worked out. Not sure how crappy a lawyer would have to be to agree to that, over "enough money to have medical bills due to this injury to be covered for life but since we have no idea how much that is we're asking for A LOT right now."
I live with someone that is covered that way. She fights with the people that pay her medical expenses about once a year, gets her lawyer involved, and then there are no more issues for another year or so.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:43 PM   #817
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I’ve gone back through this entire thread in an attempt to find a non-BARF source mentioning Kim ‘testing’, this is the only one: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lianeyv.../#1416672458c4

Notice that it says “testing his Ducati”. It’s a pretty benign statement. Those of us that ride on the track are ‘testing’ our limits, or the bikes, or new suspension / chassis adjustments, or our lap timer, or our camera setup or <insert something here>.

I cannot find anything that says what he was testing caused him to crash.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:51 PM   #818
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Thanks Berto.

Here's a funny thought I had. If a track, or TDP can be held liable for not foreseeing an object as being safe and found negligent, can you countersue that the rider was negligent in not observing the same thing?
As I said below Fraz...you CAN sue for anything. But, what is the TD provider going to get from the rider? Certainly they don't have a hefty insurance policy to chase...and insurance policy limits, that's a sticking point with me. At some point, it became known within the moto world of track riders what the minimum amount of insurance is needed to rent a track. Once that number hit the street, ALL TD providers insurance policies became a bounty to chase for anyone looking for a pot of gold, and they knew exactly how much gold was in that pot. One lesson to life; DO NOT EVER DISCLOSE YOUR POLICY LIMITS if you can avoid it. With the tracks it's impossible; it's in bold letters right in the contract. That's bad business IMO.

I'll give you another story (I'm a story-time guy):

We settled a suit against one of golf clubs about 8 or so years ago. The plaintiff had entered our club when it was closed during winter months (3 month period; January - March) through a downstairs set of doors she forced open. The golf club was closed, locked, there were no employees present and the trespasser was a member of the club. She knew the rules and the layout of the club as she was a very active member of the club. She walked upstairs to the lobby to let her friends in so they could play cards in the closed building. She turned no lights on and proceeded through the lobby which has several riser stairs around fountains, foliage and seating areas. Halfway through her jaunt to the front door, she fell down two riser stairs that were about 24 inches high. She sued us. The case took several years through the courts and for some reason, we were advised not to press charges for trespassing (it was a trespass). Eventually, as the suit bounced around in the court system, the plaintiff passed away. However, the suit continued and eventually our insurance company settled the suit which went to her heirs (i never knew this was possible). $125,000 was the payout.

Her son was the attorney on the case. He was one of the few heirs.

So yeah, fuck the legal system with stuff like that, but it happens. Our "fix" on how to notice there was a "dangerous condition" lest we do nothing and be sued down the road, was to put high contrast reflective tape on beautiful raw granite stairs. What a complete mess.

Pretty much, if you're in business and you have assets to chase, you're gonna get sued by someone, at some point. Syzmon's a great guy, but he also is flashy and that's one thing I don't think keeps the sharks at bay. A guy with all these cool toys? I want some...let's go get some. That's the attitude. But, the legal system is setup to allow it so you have to protect yourself and those you care about from falling into the clutches the suit warriors.

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Originally Posted by tzrider View Post
Further, it is destructive to ply a rider's attention off the track surface. If their focus is on correct action, they are much better off than if they have been told early in the morning about a sandbag, culvert, pipe, etc. Go do a perimeter walk of Streets of Willow sometime and make a list of all the things you see that riders had better not hit. Bring a whole legal pad, you'll need it.

After 20 years of coaching at track days, I can guarantee that most riders will forget all about the sandbags by turn three. I'll also say that by the time a rider is running off track, there were a lot of preceding errors that are preventable if we are focusing on the right things.
I agree we cannot account for everything to hit, BUT, temporary obstructions should be cleared if possible, when possible. AS George said, notice is the next step...but better than notice, is clearing the object. That leaves no question as to the safety in that area. NO provider is perfect, and usually it's that one time that gets them. That's they world we ride/ live in.

I understand your comment on keeping a rider's attention focused on the track, however that's not at issue here. Obstacles always exist and riders take that into account when riding at certain places on the track. More experienced riders know where to minimize their risk with their approach to risky areas/ terrain. We always knew Sonoma had some dangerous sections, but I don't think anyone considered how dangerous T6 was until Rich was killed, or the old T9 until Jim hit the wall and the track configuration was changed. Certainly I never thought twice about the run through T5 even AFTER Haskovek hit the wall and was paralyzed.
Sonoma fixed all of those areas after the incidents, but did anyone know they were potentially deadly? That is why Sonoma is a world class group of people. They look out for us riders.

I disagree that a rider's actions disqualifies them from a safe off-track environment where possible. Almost all of the time, the runoff and safety of the rider is managed by the track and with our tracks they do an excellent job. A trackday is a learning environment. The insurance usually references the "school" nature of the event. They are explicit about the event not having any racing present at it. Our event insurance is different and much more expensive in comparison. It's not reasonable to assume some riders will not make mistakes and need to depart the track surface at riding and racing events. In fact, there may be times when leaving the paved surface is safer than staying on. A rider putting their bike on the ground in front of another rider is one of the more common reasons. To blame a rider's loss of control as disqualifying for them expecting a safe landing zone is abhorrent, IMO. It's one of the weirder positions I've seen someone with your knowledge, experience and background take. Perhaps I interpreted the inference incorrectly?

Riders run off track and riders crash. We all know that and we all come to expect it. The concept of not planning for a rider who puts their bike on the ground is not in keeping with CA trackday providers and race organizations. Keigwins suit is an example of where missing something that may seem insignificant, turned out to be signifigant. The delineating factor was a rider departing the surface upright and attempting to gain control of their motorcycle and impacting what's become, the example.

However, Keigwins misfortune becomes all our our (TD's), notice. This exists as a good example of what to look our for, etc. Other providers paying attention will not make this same mistake.

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Originally Posted by motomania2007 View Post

You may not like it, but this is the way the real world works and how it has worked and will continue to work for a long time.
Thanks so much for your explanations and patience George. As I've said earlier in the thread, people are looking for a bad-guy in these threads, but being the voice of legal practice doesn't make anyone the bad-guy. You need a Duster and a rimmed black hat for that!

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Wow, if this is where we're headed, the end of track days is nearer than I thought. Let's keep layering a bunch of CYA activities and disclaimers to every track day. There is a point beyond which letting people know that they have a responsibility to keep their motorcycle on the track and they might get hurt if they don't is silly.

We can go on all day making up stupid ways for people to hurt themselves. Taken to a silly extreme we can hold evening classes prior to a track day to cover all that stuff. Most TDP's I've had any exposure to have a lot to cover concerning rider behavior to keep people safe.
Anytime you have a contractual or contactual relationship with another party, you're open to liability. In my law classes the term used most commonly was "anyone CAN sue...but can they win?". Our courts allow anyone to bring an action and they deliberate from there. It sucks if you're on the receiving end.

I'm not sure you (the thread participants) are aware of just how many lawsuits are perpetrated on track providers and race orgs. While it's not an every day occurrence, it's also not a rare event. Most are stopped in their infancy, but some have gone the distance. We don't hear about these because they're not put out in the media (for good reason). Kim's suit was, likely due to the high profile nature of the track and the inclusion of the track/ SCRAMP in the suit along with the high dollar figure for damages. We did not hear much of the two other suits ongoing at the same time except a reference to them, but they are also considerations for the decision to shutter Keigwins. The reality of one of those suits is fairly tragic; all are motorcycle insiders and there has to be much consternation among the parties involved. In short, it really sucks. I would guess that the details would twist most people's brains here better than Kim and that's what makes the whole thing; the lawsuits, Keigwins shutting down, etc, tragic. The people of Keigwins are good people. I don't know Daniel Kim, but shoot...he may be a good person too. That's just the nature of lawsuits within small industries; they create a civil war atmosphere and tear thing apart.

You're a smart guy Andy. You understand what George is relating to us all; that there exists a reasonableness to creating a safe environment within a trackday environment. In the end, Lawsuits come down to "What can I get someone to believe on a jury". Motorcycles and track riding have a very low lack of understanding from the general public. The argument that riders pay for a safe environment to test their machines out is an easy one for a layman to understand. The argument that there is only so much a TD can do to prepare the environment for riding is another easy one to understand. The argument that a TD provider must make provisions to remove temporary obstacles prior to riders taking to the track AND notice any temporary obstacles not removed is grounded in court decisions. Anyone who's been in business long enough knows this. But, things get missed at times and we get lucky when we miss things most times.
It's that one time that something does happen and we were complacent that gets ya.

As I said above, the best and most effective thing we can do as a group is try to understand the safety and liability position(s) of our TD providers and look out for them when we're at the track. The Keigwins case makes a good stepping off point for standards of risk mitigation education for TD and race providers. This is yet another function the AMA could provide to sanctioned clubs/ providers which is simple and necessary. They do not. It's a shame.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:46 PM   #819
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^^^ perfectly put.
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:49 PM   #820
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To blame a rider's loss of control as disqualifying for them expecting a safe landing zone is abhorrent, IMO. It's one of the weirder positions I've seen someone with your knowledge, experience and background take. Perhaps I interpreted the inference incorrectly.
If youíre inferring things I didnít say, perhaps thatís where the abohorrent ideas are coming from.

People have the right to expect reasonable safety precautions. Those sandbags have been part of the reasonable precautions for decades. Judge Willis explicitly did not find their presence unreasonable. There are lots of ways that area could be less safe than it was then. I also still think itís highly likely Kim would have had a bad crash even if the sandbag hadnít been there. He was on the brakes, nose down and was mere feet from dropping his front wheel into the ditch just beyond the sandbag.

While people have the right to expect reasonable precautions, nobody has the right to expect that this activity is absolutely safe. The mutual understanding of this, reflected in signed waivers is how organizations and customers have been able to engage in the activity in an economically feasible way. Kim may have the ďright to sue,Ē but the origin of the problem was his and in my opinion, he is abusing the agreement he agreed to.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:06 PM   #821
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When I speak of abhorrent, I was referring to this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tzrider View Post

Further, it is destructive to ply a rider's attention off the track surface. If their focus is on correct action, they are much better off than if they have been told early in the morning about a sandbag, culvert, pipe, etc.

After 20 years of coaching at track days, I can guarantee that most riders will forget all about the sandbags by turn three. I'll also say that by the time a rider is running off track, there were a lot of preceding errors that are preventable if we are focusing on the right things.
If I'm deciphering this correctly, your assertion is that a rider who makes a mistake may have a deservedness in their plight impacting objects off the track's surface, where their attention was not. Further expounded; To run off track, a rider has a made a series of mistake.

I can't agree in the least. That may be the case and it may not be the case. An off track excursion may be the result of defensive action or another rider's actions. I know you work exclusively in a school environment. Most standard trackdays do have a fair amount of unanticipated action(s) from other riders, dropped oil, etc. Riders at trackdays crash while trying to better their skills as well. After 15 years of racing, I can assure you; shit happens and it happens fast when not in a controlled environment. It is a different than in a formal school environment.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:48 PM   #822
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If I'm deciphering this correctly, your assertion is that a rider who makes a mistake may have a deservedness in their plight impacting objects off the track's surface, where their attention was not.
Youíre not deciphering it correctly.

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After 15 years of racing, I can assure you; shit happens and it happens fast when not in a controlled environment. It is a different than in a formal school environment.
Did you watch the same crash video I did? Did shit happen fast in that video?
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Old 09-15-2018, 04:23 AM   #823
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If youíre inferring things I didnít say, perhaps thatís where the abohorrent ideas are coming from.

People have the right to expect reasonable safety precautions. Those sandbags have been part of the reasonable precautions for decades. Judge Willis explicitly did not find their presence unreasonable. There are lots of ways that area could be less safe than it was then. I also still think itís highly likely Kim would have had a bad crash even if the sandbag hadnít been there. He was on the brakes, nose down and was mere feet from dropping his front wheel into the ditch just beyond the sandbag.

While people have the right to expect reasonable precautions, nobody has the right to expect that this activity is absolutely safe. The mutual understanding of this, reflected in signed waivers is how organizations and customers have been able to engage in the activity in an economically feasible way. Kim may have the ďright to sue,Ē but the origin of the problem was his and in my opinion, he is abusing the agreement he agreed to.
:werd K@TT should have rented a bulldozer and filled in the drainage ditch (not just removed the sandbags)
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Old 09-15-2018, 06:16 AM   #824
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Laguna is a dump. The run offs are more dangerous than the track. The bridges going over the track look like crap. Wait till one of those sheets of wood come falling down on track.. oh and there’s arsenic in the water. Beware.
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Old 09-15-2018, 07:21 AM   #825
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I’ve gone back through this entire thread in an attempt to find a non-BARF source mentioning Kim ‘testing’, this is the only one: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lianeyv.../#1416672458c4

Notice that it says “testing his Ducati”. It’s a pretty benign statement. Those of us that ride on the track are ‘testing’ our limits, or the bikes, or new suspension / chassis adjustments, or our lap timer, or our camera setup or <insert something here>.

I cannot find anything that says what he was testing caused him to crash.
One can extrapolate from your quoted article that Mr. Kim may have actually been looking to lose the use of his legs for his product research.
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