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Downshifts

JP-forty-three

New member
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Location
Ventura, CA
Moto(s)
Suzukis - many
I got a message from James Lickwar about questions regarding downshifts. James is my main instructor in the afternoon portions of our school, and has a lot of knowledge and sound techniques. As some of you may know I don't ever spend anytime in chat rooms or forums, but I wanted to see if I could be of some help if possible and get some of your questions answered - Hope that is ok. I want to add beforehand that whatever works best for you is great, and this is just another way of looking at something. RPM management is absolutely everything to me and how I ride.

Reading some of your posts, there are many of you that understand the way we teach downshifting at STAR schools. I like that someone wrote that I’m not NOT advocating blipping the throttle, because blipping the throttle totally works and I use it. Before we explain the technique I try and teach, lets figure out what causes bad downshifts.

We all know not enough RPMs when going to a lower gear are what makes our bikes act up upon corner entry, but why? First off there are three things that kill our RPMs: rolling the throttle off, pulling in the clutch and applying brakes. All three of those things cause the RPMs to die and therefore we have to blip to bring them back up.

What I try to teach is this: When we initially roll off the throttle, too many of us wait too long to click our first downshift - hence we lose RPM. Say we are going down a 4th gear straightaway into a 2nd gear corner. If I’m @ 11,000 rpm with a redline of 14,000 rpm in 4th gear, couldn’t I theoretically go to 3rd gear without doing too much? Think about that - I clicked a downshift but I never had to blip. If I’m at 13,500 rpm then I will roll the throttle off a couple thousand rpm to allow the motor not to over-rev into the red zone. My throttle is closing but my RPMs are going up and working for me. Now that I have gone to 3rd gear the time I take to get down to 2nd is very short. I want to have all the RPMs that I can use to help slow the bike down while I am braking.

Someone else wrote how they caught themselves pulling in the clutch lever a bit too far. That is very observant. By only pulling in the clutch lever half the distance that most of you do, that is RPM gained to help you with your downshifts. Go to your bike and start it. Pull the clutch in, put it in gear and let the clutch lever out in super slow motion. Look how much clutch you release before your bike starts to roll away. Now think how many RPMs you lose when you pull it to the bar on each downshift.

This is a bit harder to explain in writing as opposed to where I am normally teaching this in the classroom. If you go to any of the links of our
onboard videos of me buzzing around the tracks of America, listen closely how quickly the first downshifts are getting done when the motorcycle begins to decelerate. Where I do blip it is usually when I’m coming from a wide open 5th or 6th gear straightaway. Getting down to 2nd gear while heavy braking sometimes requires a blip as my RPMs are going down so fast it is needed. Listen and you will hear that.

The last part of this is realizing you don’t DROP the clutch, you RELEASE it. Once I’m in my lowest gear you will hear and see that I am very deliberate on how I get the rear wheel and engine on speaking terms. We all have heard how smooth equals fast, and being smooth on your downshifts will help you to set a consistent entry speed into corners.

In closing, here are a couple things to remember. The earlier you can get your bike into the gear you want to roll thru the corner, the better. Don’t make downshifting the last thing you do before turn in. An unsmooth downshift or release of the clutch will upset the bike as you try and turn it in. We all know what false neutrals are. Wouldn’t it be great to not get them when we want to turn the bike in? By getting my downshifts done earlier, I can correct a possible false neutral while the bike is upright.

I’m sure there will be questions but I hope that I have been able to help in some way.

Thanks and ride safe

Jason Pridmore
www.starmotorcycle.com
 
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Thank you for coming out to write all of this...Hopefully i'll see you at a CLASS soon!
 
Z3n said:
Thank you for coming out to write all of this...Hopefully i'll see you at a CLASS soon!


:laughing :laughing :laughing (Jason is the owner of STAR riding school and a former AMA winner and long time competitor, he is not connected with CLASS, his father's school)

Welcome Jason. I don't expect to see you at a CLASS but am glad you are posting to BARF, what a great asset for us.

Ernie

(former CLASS student and instructor whose wadded bike you pushed all the way from T7 to the Pits at Sears Point about a century ago)
 
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:hail :hail :hail

Thank you, reminds me how very little I know about riding well and makes me want to go to school!
 
Thanks for posting, I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say that you are more than welcome here on this board and hope to continue to see you posting. Barf has a lot of variety but you will find that almost everyone is interested in learning to ride their bike faster, smoother, and more safely, there is a fair share of typical forum behavior but there is a lot of passion for motorcycling and track education as well. I've been thinking about doing a school as well but haven't had the motivation yet. Thanks again :leghump :thumbup
 
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Thanks, that was a great write-up! Very clean in the points you are conveying.

Always learning something new on BARF, wuch as what this seasons color is for flip-flops!
 
afm199 said:
:laughing :laughing :laughing (Jason is the owner of STAR riding school and a former AMA winner and long time competitor, he is not connected with CLASS, his father's school)

Welcome Jason. I don't expect to see you at a CLASS but am glad you are posting to BARF, what a great asset for us.

Ernie

(former CLASS student and instructor whose wadded bike you pushed all the way from T7 to the Pits at Sears Point about a century ago)

God...damnit. I'm a moron. Sorry jason! I'll make it to all of the schools i can someday...yours is on the list. :laughing
 
So let me see if I understand this correctly:

As you approach the turn (4th gear at 11K rpm same scenario as above), you start downshifting to 3rd by pulling the clutch in halfway and shifting down but not throttling off yet. Then releasing the clutch.

If the throttle is kept constant the moment the clutch is released, wouldn't you have some engine braking? I guess that would help slow you down.
 
Wannaduck said:
So let me see if I understand this correctly:

As you approach the turn (4th gear at 11K rpm same scenario as above), you start downshifting to 3rd by pulling the clutch in halfway and shifting down but not throttling off yet. Then releasing the clutch.

If the throttle is kept constant the moment the clutch is released, wouldn't you have some engine braking? I guess that would help slow you down.

Your RPM's will increase to just below your 14k redline, allowing you to setup for that 2nd gear turn, with only one downshift.
 
What is the correct "save" if you botch this technique while learning it ex: downshift at too high an rpm and release the clutch too suddenly? just reign the clutch back it while still braking and blip once you have decelerated enough? Thats the only solution I can come up with but it seems to just be begging for a highside.... :confused
 
Lazerus said:
What is the correct "save" if you botch this technique while learning it ex: downshift at too high an rpm and release the clutch too suddenly? just reign the clutch back it while still braking and blip once you have decelerated enough? Thats the only solution I can come up with but it seems to just be begging for a highside.... :confused

I'd suggest practicing this technique while riding at a constant speed on a straight road before trying it while barreling into your favorite Thunderhill turn at full blast! This is what I did and it made things a whole lot easier.

And rather than worrying about how to "save it", I'd suggest working on your clutch technique. Focus on letting the clutch out quickly and smoothly, until you feel resistance. Once you feel resistance, feather the clutch out slowly until the engine is completely engaged. Once this becomes an ingrained habit, it will be almost impossible to screw up a downshift to the point where it's a problem. If you rev match perfectly, you'll never feel any resistance and can let the clutch out very quickly. If you screw up the rev match, you'll feel resistance when letting the clutch out and you'll automatically slow down your release of the clutch lever to help compensate.
 
On rev matching I would give myself an 8 out of ten. I have spent quite a bit of time learning it as it makes life on my passenger much easier, however it sounds like he is suggesting no match, like something just this side of banging it into gear... From his videos it seems very effective, but before I jump out of an airplane, I like to know how to deploy my secondary chute :teeth
 
Unfortunately, it sounds like you don't understand the technique. Or at least you don't understand why it works.

Question: what happens when you pull the clutch lever in and the throttle is, say, 60% open? Do revs rise, fall, or stay the same?
 
that holding the throttle open when downshifting is the BOMB!! I used to blip(or not blip and feather the clutch) I tried holding the throttle slightly open today and the results were impressive. definately another trick for the bag. Thanks
 
fubar929 said:
Unfortunately, it sounds like you don't understand the technique. Or at least you don't understand why it works.

Question: what happens when you pull the clutch lever in and the throttle is, say, 60% open? Do revs rise, fall, or stay the same?


You are right. I'm not seeing in there where he say to leave the throttle open. And having the throttle at 60% can make the revs rise, or stay the same depending on where in your rpm range you are making your shift and what bike you are riding. If you are shifting my 250 near redline, it's a wash.

Regardless, although I LOVE (and spend hours a day seeking) new info on riding, I dont feel comfortable employing new techniques until I also understand how to unFOOK myself. example, locked front wheel, get off the front brake, or rear wheel spin keep throttle steady and hands loose etc. So, in the interest of safety, is the solution that I posted previously the best "save" if you make a mistake?
 
Lazerus said:
You are right. I'm not seeing in there where he say to leave the throttle open. And having the throttle at 60% can make the revs rise, or stay the same depending on where in your rpm range you are making your shift and what bike you are riding. If you are shifting my 250 near redline, it's a wash.

No. If you're running the bike at a given RPM and you pull in the clutch revs will rise! At least they do on every sportbike I've ever ridden. This is also why the technique Jason describes works: when you pull the clutch in while the throttle is open, your RPMs will rise. Do it quickly enough and you'll get the same effect you would if you blipped the throttle... but without actually having to do the blip!

Remember: you're only downshifting one gear at a time. You're not slamming down 5 gears with the clutch in and then dumping it! If you get the technique wrong, 9.5 times out of 10 the worst thing that will happen is the rear wheel will chirp and you'll upset the suspension a bit. It's just like any other downshifting technique in this respect!
 
The easiest way to figure this out is to practice it. Go out to a place where there's no traffic, ride at constant throttle. Now, while holding the throttle in the same position, quickly pull the clutch in, and as the revs rise, downshift and let the clutch out. Ideally, this entire process will be completed in well under a second. It works because as he's rolling out of the throttle, for a moment it's at say 50% throttle, he engages the clutch, the RPM's spike up (as the engine unloads), and downshifts and lets the clutch out. Shift completed with no blip. Now, once the throttle is completely closed, it's back to blip downshifts as usual. This technique is not used for every downshift, only downshifts in that particular situation.

You don't need to be screaming along in the upper 35% of the rev range to do it, either. I use this technique mostly at low speeds, because i haven't had the chance to really practice it in a track situation yet.
 
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