Lowside on 84

I biffed it on 84 in Woodside today. I was headed east into Woodside. Here's the corner:

http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=3...=19&vpsrc=6&q=woodside,+ca&hl=en&source=gm_el

It's a funny corner where it starts downhill with the road cambered to the inside of the turn, but midway it levels out.

I don't think I was going too fast for conditions. The turn is marked 20 and my speedoo indicates 30 - I had a clear line of sight through the turn and had not been pushing anything the whole ride.

I think what caused the crash was an early apex and poor correction. It didn't feel like I was leaning all that far, but the difference between turning and sliding wasn't much. Aaron (Bonerov) had a good point in that when the road leveled out, I might have been too tense on the bars, hampering the suspension from doing its job.

But, I don't know much and lucky for us all (save my ego), there is video. Here it is:

[youtube]lermLUCSJik[/youtube]

I've already been thinking on the merits of "late entry/apex" and how I can actively apply it in future riding. I do try to stay relaxed on the bars, but I have noticed it's harder going downhill. I am open to your comments, questions and suggestions.

Thanks for looking and any feedback. And I can't thank Connie and Aaron enough. Nor BARF as a whole. But, thanks all the same

Looked more like an early apex to me. But I'm just being a backseat quarterback right now.

To help yourself stay relaxed on the bars, grip the tank with your thighs tighter and use your core (abs) to keep your body upright to help keep the weight off.

If you haven't been to one yet, I highly recommend going to one of DocWong's ergo clinics

Were you just covering the front brake or did you actually apply it in the turn?

CABilly said:

I've already been thinking on the merits of "late entry/apex" and how I can actively apply it in future riding. I do try to stay relaxed on the bars, but I have noticed it's harder going downhill. I am open to your comments, questions and suggestions.

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Glad you're okay From the video it does look like you over corrected after the apex and turned your front wheel too much, causing the front to slide out.

Re riding downhill - a good tip I picked up from Doc Wong's clinics is to always be holding snugly onto the bike with your knees and legs and feet - it allows you to be super light/loose on the bars.

And it helps particularly on downhills where gravity is otherwise applying more of your weight onto the bars. I used to get sore shoulders after riding lots of downhills - not any longer.


T

Flying Pig said:

Looked more like an early apex to me. But I'm just being a backseat quarterback right now.

To help yourself stay relaxed on the bars, grip the tank with your thighs tighter and use your core (abs) to keep your body upright to help keep the weight off.

If you haven't been to one yet, I highly recommend going to one of DocWong's ergo clinics

Click to expand...

CABilly said:

I think what caused the crash was an early apex and poor correction.
[...]
I've already been thinking on the merits of "late entry/apex" and how I can actively apply it in future riding.

Click to expand...

stoppie said:

Were you just covering the front brake or did you actually apply it in the turn?

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Just covering. I just watched with headphones and it sounds like I was rolling on just prior to wiping out. I had no reason to brake and I felt confident in my moves until, well, I wasn't moving any more.

Titus58 said:

Glad you're okay From the video it does look like you over corrected after the apex and turned your front wheel too much, causing the front to slide out.

Re riding downhill - a good tip I picked up from Doc Wong's clinics is to always be holding snugly onto the bike with your knees and legs and feet - it allows you to be super light/loose on the bars.

And it helps particularly on downhills where gravity is otherwise applying more of your weight onto the bars. I used to get sore shoulders after riding lots of downhills - not any longer.


T

Click to expand...

I was signed up for the Doc Wong clinic this Sunday and was going to drop in on Friday for the ergo clinic

CABilly said:

I just watched with headphones and it sounds like I was rolling on just prior to wiping out.

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I think you got it! It seems like you squared off the turn, and right as you are pivoting, you got on the gas, overloading the front.

What year is that 250, and is it still rocking the original tires? I fully realize that this section is primarily about identifying riding technique errors, but the grip level on the original Dunlop K630's is marginal when new, and it goes downhill from there if they are 5+ years old.

aciurczak said:

What year is that 250, and is it still rocking the original tires? I fully realize that this section is primarily about identifying riding technique errors, but the grip level on the original Dunlop K630's is marginal when new, and it goes downhill from there if they are 5+ years old.

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If the tires were a primary, or the primary contributor, then why didn't he crash on one of the many previous turns?

Perhaps because he didn't exceed the limits of the bike, the tires, and his experience up until then. The video isn't clear enough to determine exactly what went wrong when, other than while in a turn there is a loss of grip and the bike lowsides. Many things could have contributed that have already been discussed (too stiff of steering input, line choice causing a steeper than necessary lean angle, braking inputs), and each one of them could very well have been the most significant factor. But that doesn't change the reality that tires do have different levels of available grip, and the OEM tires on the pre-gen ninjettes were marginal when new, and get downright scary after they've been sitting for many years.

I hear a footpeg or kickstand dragging for a few tenths of a second before the bike actively falls over. OP, do you remember hearing or feeling this, and is it possible that you reacted to it with some kind of input that may have caused the crash?

Agreed, your lean angle was not excessive, the bike is easily capable of dragging hard parts without lowsiding, but it can be startling if you're not familiar with how it sounds and feels.

The tires didn't all of a sudden degrade in this corner, or on this ride, or on the ride the day before. Something happened in this corner that was different. Pointing towards the tires takes the focus away from this corner, and that isn't going to help in this situation.

I noticed that too. Just a few turns before the crash I'd scraped my right footpeg for the first time. Reviewing the video, it's tough to see if I reacted physically, but it did startle me. I did think to myself, "well that's what that feels like, no biggie." When the crash happened, I heard the scraping first and thought it was just like before.

I doubt the tires are the cause. They are Pirelli MT75's with decent tread left.

Billy,
First, I'm glad you were unscathed. Props were wearing proper gear!
Second, it's difficult to tell exactly what happend in the video. Slo-mo might help, but it would still be difficult to ascertain the exact cause of the spill. The apex was definitely early, and the adjustment may have been the culprit. If you had too much weight on the bars while you adjusted your line, that could have caused the spill.

I disagree with sf250gto about rolling on the gas causing the front to be overloaded. Rolling on the gas has the exact opposite effect, in fact.

cycle61 said:

I hear a footpeg or kickstand dragging for a few tenths of a second before the bike actively falls over. OP, do you remember hearing or feeling this, and is it possible that you reacted to it with some kind of input that may have caused the crash?

Agreed, your lean angle was not excessive, the bike is easily capable of dragging hard parts without lowsiding, but it can be startling if you're not familiar with how it sounds and feels.

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CABilly said:

I noticed that too. Just a few turns before the crash I'd scraped my right footpeg for the first time. Reviewing the video, it's tough to see if I reacted physically, but it did startle me. I did think to myself, "well that's what that feels like, no biggie." When the crash happened, I heard the scraping first and thought it was just like before.

I doubt the tires are the cause. They are Pirelli MT75's with decent tread left.

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I think that the peg scraping may be a clue.

An early turn-in (early apex), causing a need for a mid corner adjustment in lean angle, causing you to run out of ground clearance and the subsequent loss of traction and low side.

Here are some of the things I noticed:

• The line is an early apex as mentioned.
• The throttle is negative for most of the turn.
• Rider increased lean angle (to correct line) just before the bike slid.
• Rider began to open the throttle simultaneously with increasing lean angle.
• The rear came around first.

This looks to me like a case of increasing throttle and lean angle at the same time. It is extremely easy to lose the rear while doing this.

I haven't watched it with sound (I'm at work) but tzrider's statement makes perfect sense. In re-watching it, I would agree that the rear did step out first.

Clearly a later apex would have helped. However, shit happens, especially for us newbies. Now, in the event that an early apex does happen for whatever reason, what do you need to do in order to correct without losing ground clearance and of course without falling? From the OP's experience, rolling on and leaning harder does not seem to be the answer.

A. roll off throttle and lean harder
B. steady throttle and lean harder
C. don't lean harder, adjust body position
D. other (describe)
E. wheelie into bushes

I stand corrected (actually sitting at my computer)...I believe tzrider and Bonerov are correct.

I was thinking that getting on the gas unloaded (not overloaded) the front, causing the front to wash, but after further review it does appear the back comes around.

Glad you're OK! Hope you get the bike back on the road soon.

cycle61 said:

I hear a footpeg or kickstand dragging for a few tenths of a second before the bike actively falls over. OP, do you remember hearing or feeling this,

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This???

I am noob, I know, but I would love to hear more from OP on what he felt going into the turn, and when the lowside commenced.

I've now watched this video a dozen times, and do not see anything in his line, ride, road, or anything that differs much from my own, except he's on a 250, i'm on my old shitty seca. I can't tell in the vid, but it didn't seem like he was in too much of a lean, nor was he at too high a pace, again, I don't know 84, or 250's, but I am curious.

I also heard the sound of something apparently scraping before the crash...

Anyways,

<<Noob

Ignore me if I"m just being noobish

Koi,
Just so you know, his entry was way too tight (early apex). That line caused him to have to make a correction mid-corner. Had he been further to the right and turned-in later, he would have had more visibility through the corner and would likely have not had to adjust mid-corner. A late apex is essential on the street, as it gives the rider a better chance to see hazards in the corner, or changes in the corner radius. Couple the early apex and subsequent mid-corner correction with a lower skill level, and bad things can happen. It's all part of learning, and the important thing is that Billy is ok and is learning all that he can from this. Riders like him do not tend to fall repeatedly, which is a good thing. See you out there soon, Billy (maybe with that italian redhead that you were flirting with yesterday...).