Which way does the tire point in the middle of a corner?

[Holeshot]

That's correct Tim, and I agree with that. What I do not agree with is the notion that lean angle has any value in the definition of counter steering and this thread is the first I've seen/ read that contention (don't get me wrong, understanding the relationship between lean angle and counter-steering is important). Alot of the over analyzation just confuses new riders, especially when the attempt is made to use lean angle as a definition of counter steering. Most certainly lean angle is a bi-product of Counter steering, but that's where I'd draw the line. It's interesting how this thread took a turn, yet again, towards counter steering as if that is the most important thing in motorcycle dynamics negotiating a corner.

The truth is, STEERING is the most important and overlooked/ misunderstood concept in motorcycle riding. That was the aim of this thread: to get riders to understand that steering is what causes a motorcycle to change direction and thus, a pretty important concept to understand. A "lack" of steering leads to some really bad riding and lap times and a lack of understanding how a motorcycle steers can lead to some poor riding habits. Pushing on the bars mid corner is what I try to stay away from so that I don't lose feel at the front end. I've never found a comfortable feeling from counter-steering mid corner to add lean angle/ steering.

Berto... Pull right=Push left

Amen Rory...anyone who's had one bar come loose on them or a fork tube spin on them learned that real quick or finished in the back.

I'm not Tim, but as you can guess, I'd say yes.

"Push left go left" does apply if you're picking the bike up out of a right-hander. When you do that, you're making the bike go left relative to the line (arc) it was previously on.

Andy, It really has to confuse newer and novice (fundamental novice...who may be excellent riders themselves) riders to use the term "Counter-steering" in such different ways. To a learning rider, they really just want to know which bar to pull or push on and what the effect is. If a rider aims to pick up the bike from a right handed corner, they would NOT want to push the inside bar to the left. That would be a correct counter steering move that would increase steering to the inside (right) and add lean angle. It would not decrease lean angle and steering (allowing the transition to straight for the bars) which is what we're looking for on an exit. Your comment never addresses the fact that bike never truly "goes left"...IOW, it never changes directions to the left, in fact it changes direction MORE to the right.

I think that is why using the term CS for anything other than "steering input opposite the direction of travel" is important. You and Tim seem to be wanting to only use the term Counter-steering to describe a motorcycle's action and effect. There is a whole steering component as well that's super important.

When we add MORE steering input into a corner (which has the effect of standing the bike up more without and a weight shift further inside), we're adding steering. We're not counter-steering by any definition I've used. We steer into the corner and counter steer away from the corner. It's pretty simple when we use those definitions.

It was pretty interesting, on a side note, watching the highlights from the Daytona Supersport class on the 2nd Superbike race's telecast. They showed a rider crash, fall off of his bike which then continued at warp speed into the oncoming race pack which had made a 160 degree turn, hitting no one. There was no rider on the bike and with no outside force and enough energy, it went straight as an arrow. When the bike came onto a lower slope, it began a gradual arc towards that low slope...no counter steering, just steering. A Bike's natural tendency is the stay upright. The entire cornering subject is rife with theories on how best to break that tendency.


NOTE: For those who think I'm speaking from a position of track familiarity and competence, that competence isn't due to some natural talent. I had to (and still do so) learn all this stuff to get to my current skill set. I'm not one of the natural guys out there and thus, I understand the confusion in trying to wrap your mind around how to get quicker/ better at riding. I really wish I was a natural. All of this discussion is a little different from my normal riding style. I use as little bar input as possible...and that's not alot. Blisters and arm pump should tell volumes.

 

[Ironbutt]

Well.. it depends on which wheel is sliding of course.. :grin

 

[Enchanter]

What is your goal with this thread?

Who is your target audience? Age / skill level / where do they ride / how do they ride?

What is your personal definition of countersteering?

 

[Enchanter]

If a rider aims to pick up the bike from a right handed corner, they would NOT want to push the inside bar to the left. That would be a correct counter steering move that would increase steering to the inside (right) and add lean angle. It would not decrease lean angle and steering (allowing the transition to straight for the bars) which is what we're looking for on an exit. Your comment never addresses the fact that bike never truly "goes left"...IOW, it never changes directions to the left, in fact it changes direction MORE to the right.

What the fuck did you just say?

In a right and turn, pushing on the inside bar would cause the motorcycle to lean more to the right. It is still countersteering, it was just done in the wrong direction.

You seem to have an aversion to connecting lean angle and counter-steering. Bummer. It's simply a fact of riding the bike. When the bars turn, lean angle changes.

 

[tzrider]

Andy, It really has to confuse newer and novice (fundamental novice...who may be excellent riders themselves) riders to use the term "Counter-steering" in such different ways.

I don't know how many "different ways" you're counting, but I've got exactly one definition of countersteering. Though I've agreed with Tim's restatement, I shouldn't have, because it's not precise. The precise cause and effect is that if you steer the front wheel one way, it will cause a lean angle change to the opposite side. This is true regardless of what lean angle the bike is at.

To a learning rider, they really just want to know which bar to pull or push on and what the effect is.

Agreed. See above.

If a rider aims to pick up the bike from a right handed corner, they would NOT want to push the inside bar to the left. That would be a correct counter steering move that would increase steering to the inside (right) and add lean angle. It would not decrease lean angle and steering (allowing the transition to straight for the bars) which is what we're looking for on an exit. Your comment never addresses the fact that bike never truly "goes left"...IOW, it never changes directions to the left, in fact it changes direction MORE to the right.

I have to admit, I have no idea what you just said above. The bolded text is where you're losing me.

To be clear, I'll restate what a rider would to to exit a right hand turn: He would push forward on the left bar.

"Pushing the bar to the left" wouldn't be a correct countersteering action under any circumstance.

When we add MORE steering input into a corner (which has the effect of standing the bike up more without and a weight shift further inside), we're adding steering. We're not counter-steering by any definition I've used. We steer into the corner and counter steer away from the corner. It's pretty simple when we use those definitions.

With all due respect, your definition is unique. I literally don't know anyone else who would define the term that way and I know a lot of riders.

 

[Cycle61]

I want to sit at a table and watch Tim, Andy, and Berto have this conversation in person.

I'll buy the first round. Seriously.

 

[Aluisious]

This thread is making my head asplode in anticipation of trying the "bump it and relax" method of steering. I always thought I was turning the bars away from the turn and "holding" them there, but with careful thought that can't be happening.

I think.

Damn. More asplodey. I'm trying to figure out how tire profile figures into leaning, turning, and steering, and I can feel blood vessels giving out.

edit yeah, the tire must be pointing inside the turn otherwise the bike would just fall over to the inside.

 

[tzrider]

This thread is making my head asplode in anticipation of trying the "bump it and relax" method of steering. I always thought I was turning the bars away from the turn and "holding" them there, but with careful thought that can't be happening.

You're correct, if that's any reassurance.

 

[Lazerus]

Berto: seems like you finish the corner by pulling the inside bar toward yourself, and since that motion is in the same direction as the turn, you call it Steering instead of counter steering.

Seems like Andy and Tim are saying that pushing the outside bar forward would be achieving the same result/ have the same effect on the bike, and that it is still considered counter steering regardless of which direction the road goes. This likely stems from the same source as "push left- go left" rather than "pull right-go left", that being the desire to simplify.

Just seems like a minor disconnect in technique and terminology rather than a disagreement. I dig this thread though, something my buddies and I have discussed a few times.

 

[Aluisious]

To boil it down and dispense with terminology...can it be said that at all times the bike pretty much likes to be stable and continue doing what it is doing, and all steering inputs are essentially just kicking the legs out from under it a little to get it to settle into a new configuration?

 

[Holeshot]

In a right and turn, pushing on the inside bar would cause the motorcycle to lean more to the right. It is still counter-steering, it was just done in the wrong direction.

We agree here. My contention has been consistent that turning the front tire the opposite direction of travel/ corner ( or pushing the inside bar) is counter-steering, where steering is the inverse of that; the turning of the front tire IN the direction of travel/ corner.

You seem to have an aversion to connecting lean angle and counter-steering. Bummer. It's simply a fact of riding the bike. When the bars turn, lean angle changes.

No aversion at All Tim, I'm just trying to keep things simplified. Read Alliosious's post below. When you get too detailed, it gets confusing. The reason many riders are confused on counter-steering VS steering are these type of discussions and where people try to expand them into far too many concepts at once. Your statement "when the bars turn, lean angle changes" is half correct and could be a reason riders are confused on what bar movement does. On a corner entry, the front tire points away from the corner (bars turned). The bike begins a lean and the bars immediately begin a transition INTO the corner, yet lean angle isn't changing at that point, it's stabilizing. That stabilizing concept and the steering concept isn't widely spoken of, nor described.

The precise cause and effect is that if you steer the front wheel one way, it will cause a lean angle change to the opposite side. This is true regardless of what lean angle the bike is at.

To be clear, I'll restate what a rider would to to exit a right hand turn: He would push forward on the left bar.

"Pushing the bar to the left" wouldn't be a correct counter-steering action under any circumstance.


With all due respect, your definition is unique. I literally don't know anyone else who would define the term that way and I know a lot of riders.

We must hang out in different circles. Agree on your concept of how steering affects lean angle. I do not agree as that as definition of counter-steering however as it totally negates the definition is steering itself. ANY lean angle change is not counter steering, especially when we can add steering and change lean angle.

Andy, "Push left go left" means "push on the left bar, go left. Push on the right bar, go right". If in a right handed turn (in your example), the inside bar is the right bar, correct? Pushing on that bar, the right bar (or inside bar) is NOT the correct action.

your earlier statement is either missing info or incorrect:

"Push left go left" does apply if you're picking the bike up out of a right-hander. When you do that, you're making the bike go left relative to the line (arc) it was previously on.

If I push on the left bar in this theoretical right handed turn It will stand the bike up AND add steering (pointing the wheel MORE into the corner). If I push the inside bar (right bar) TO the LEFT (as it would appear your referring to here), the bike would not change direction as you indicate to the left. It would merely add more lean angle and the tire would point further into the corner (giving credence to Tim's linking of counter steering and lean angle).

I think you may have mistyped what you meant at some point because this:

To be clear, I'll restate what a rider would to to exit a right hand turn: He would push forward on the left bar.

"Pushing the bar to the left" wouldn't be a correct counter-steering action under any circumstance.

...is correct. The Wikipedia definition is decent enough and shows where Tim is getting his definition, which I have consistently said is a bi-product, not what I use as a definition.

Counter-steering is the technique used by single-track vehicle operators, cyclists and motorcyclists, to initiate a turn toward a given direction by first steering counter to the desired direction ("steer left to turn right"). To negotiate a turn successfully, the combined center of mass of the rider and the single-track vehicle must first be leaned in the direction of the turn, and steering briefly in the opposite direction causes that lean. Once sufficient lean is established to sustain the desired turn, the rider, or in many cases the bike itself, then steers into the turn to cause the bike to turn in the desired direction and stop the lean from increasing. This technique does not apply to conventional multiple-tracked vehicles such as trikes or sidecar equipped bicycles and motorcycles.

It is important to distinguish between counter-steering as a physical phenomenon and counter-steering as a rider technique for initiating a lean (the usual interpretation of the term). The physical phenomenon always occurs, because there is no other way to cause the bike and rider to lean short of some outside influence such as an opportune side wind, although at low speeds it can be lost or hidden in the minute corrections made to maintain balance.

Notice the part about opposite direction. I've never heard Counter Steering to include "in the same direction". You are the first I've heard to make that claim...

Mind you, All this pushing on bars creeps me out...I do as little of that as I can as I tend to lose alot of feel doing so...and a front tire just doesn't want to seem to point the wrong direction of travel without alot of fanfare for me.

 

[Holeshot]

Berto: seems like you finish the corner by pulling the inside bar toward yourself, and since that motion is in the same direction as the turn, you call it Steering instead of counter steering.

Seems like Andy and Tim are saying that pushing the outside bar forward would be achieving the same result/ have the same effect on the bike, and that it is still considered counter steering regardless of which direction the road goes. This likely stems from the same source as "push left- go left" rather than "pull right-go left", that being the desire to simplify.

Just seems like a minor disconnect in technique and terminology rather than a disagreement. I dig this thread though, something my buddies and I have discussed a few times.

Rory, alot of confusion in riders can come from not understand what is steering and what is counter steering. Using the term "counter steering" for any movement of the front wheel isn't correct. We really shouldn't have to get into what is "steering" to understand this. Counter steering is steering away from the direction of travel. Forget pulling on bars and lean angle for a second...steering is what allows the bike to change direction and follow a set track in the direction of travel.

 

[Ironbutt]

Just to add another interesting brain-teaser twist to what's already become a nearly beat-to-death discussion.

What impact does the addition of some front brake application (trailing or added once leaned over in the turn) have on:

- Front wheel directional pointing?
- Bike lean angle?
- Countersteering activity?
- Bike path of travel (trajectory)?
- Etc?

OHHOHH OHH.. I'll answer this..

- Front wheel directional pointing?
--Turns into direction of travel, sharper

- Bike lean angle? -Stands it up?

- Countersteering activity? hmm.. ?

- Bike path of travel (trajectory)? Leading w/front pulls motorcycle inward- Rear brake use tends to push or pull bike outward. Really it depends on the speed and angle of the corner.. all I know is leading in w/the front brake isn't necessary *quicker* but it does feel great when you get it right! YAHOOOO!

 

[Enchanter]

I give up.

 

[tuxumino]

. It's interesting how this thread took a turn,
.

well placed pun

 

[wheeliedrop]

As stated here, this works. In fact, if the rider hangs off more and the speed does not change, the bars will have to turn a little bit more into the corner to stay on the new, tighter arc.

No that I have any idea how to ride a motorcycle, so bear with me, but is this technique you describe above to tighten the line in a turn what Keith Code describes in his book as?:

"Steering and throttle are linked. Turning the front end into the turn and getting the back to come around can only be done on a few turns in the U.S. Like the old turn #2 at Loudon. You have to muscle the bike to do it and you've got to be leaned way over or it will counter-steer back up instead of biting and turning in."

If so, it looks like an advanced racing technique that I'll be sure no to try on the street, although it looks interesting to me since it might be a useful emergency maneuver to avoid obstacles/running out while in a turn.

As a newbie, and after having read the usual KC books and his video, if I see the need to tighten my line while turning (which I'm afraid I have to do more often than I would like too) I just counter-steer to gain more lean angle and then let the front wheel find its balance point around the new tighter turning line, which by the way it does feel like it is looking slightly to the inside of the turn.

 

[Holeshot]

And the problem with the counter steering method mid corner is you have to tense your inner arm, be it for a brief second and you lose the ability of that front tire to point further into the turn (which is what it does anyway after your counter steer) because a stiff inner arm resists the wheel steering more into the turn. It's why using arms to control your body on a bike instead of legs is a bad habit.

Far better to do as Andy suggests and leave that inside arm loose as a goose and drop more weight further to the inside. How is it best to do this? Drop you head/ chin over your knee more...stick that thing so far out there that if you fall, you'll scuff your chin.

 

[tzrider]

We must hang out in different circles. Agree on your concept of how steering affects lean angle. I do not agree as that as definition of counter-steering however as it totally negates the definition is steering itself. ANY lean angle change is not counter steering, especially when we can add steering and change lean angle.

This seems to be one point of disagreement. If you cause a lean angle change by turning the steering head, you have countersteered. Once you set the lean angle required for the trajectory you want to be on, you just stop pushing the bars. They center themselves on the path of travel, specifically the tangent of the arc you're on.

I'm specifically not addressing the underlined phrase above in this post. If we can find common ground on the rest of this, we can come back to that later. It only complicates the discussion for now.

Andy, "Push left go left" means "push on the left bar, go left. Push on the right bar, go right". If in a right handed turn (in your example), the inside bar is the right bar, correct? Pushing on that bar, the right bar (or inside bar) is NOT the correct action.

If by "push left go left," you mean, push forward on the left bar," there is no disagreement here. Have I said otherwise?

I did object to the phrase "Pushing the bar to the left." Is that what you're alluding to? If so, I'm not trying to be pedantic, but this *is* a point of confusion for some people. When some riders hear the phrase "push left go left," they cannot conceive that turning the steering head to the right will make the bike lean to the left. They incorrectly rationalize the phrase to mean that they should muscle the bike to the left by heaving the bars sideways to the left. Having found this specific misunderstanding in scores of riders over the years, I've learned to be very specific about what one's hand does to the bar.

your earlier statement is either missing info or incorrect:

"Push left go left" does apply if you're picking the bike up out of a right-hander. When you do that, you're making the bike go left relative to the line (arc) it was previously on.

If I push on the left bar in this theoretical right handed turn It will stand the bike up AND add steering (pointing the wheel MORE into the corner). If I push the inside bar (right bar) TO the LEFT (as it would appear your referring to here), the bike would not change direction as you indicate to the left. It would merely add more lean angle and the tire would point further into the corner (giving credence to Tim's linking of counter steering and lean angle).

I have never advocated the action in bold above. It would be a pointless expenditure of energy that has practically no effect on the bike. Even though I echoed the phrase, "push left go left," I don't particularly like it because of the misunderstanding it can create, as I alluded to above. The more precise statement would be "push the left bar forward to go left." I get that nobody wants to say that over and over in a classroom, so we end up with common phrases like "push left go left."

I think you may have mistyped what you meant at some point because this:

Counter-steering is the technique used by single-track vehicle operators, cyclists and motorcyclists, to initiate a turn toward a given direction by first steering counter to the desired direction ("steer left to turn right"). To negotiate a turn successfully, the combined center of mass of the rider and the single-track vehicle must first be leaned in the direction of the turn, and steering briefly in the opposite direction causes that lean. Once sufficient lean is established to sustain the desired turn, the rider, or in many cases the bike itself, then steers into the turn to cause the bike to turn in the desired direction and stop the lean from increasing. This technique does not apply to conventional multiple-tracked vehicles such as trikes or sidecar equipped bicycles and motorcycles.

It is important to distinguish between counter-steering as a physical phenomenon and counter-steering as a rider technique for initiating a lean (the usual interpretation of the term). The physical phenomenon always occurs, because there is no other way to cause the bike and rider to lean short of some outside influence such as an opportune side wind, although at low speeds it can be lost or hidden in the minute corrections made to maintain balance.

...is correct. The Wikipedia definition is decent enough and shows where Tim is getting his definition, which I have consistently said is a bi-product, not what I use as a definition.

Notice the part about opposite direction. I've never heard Counter Steering to include "in the same direction". You are the first I've heard to make that claim...

I'd appreciate it if you can indicate where I've said, "in the same direction," because I don't think I have.

 

[HIglesias]

as a newb i think this thread is very informative. I like it.
this really is kind of misunderstood. i always felt like i was doing something wrong while riding, and after reading most of these responses, i clearly am. on the other hand, some things make sense.

i always knew that counter steering got you turning in, but after that, wtf are you supposed to do with the bars?!

 

[tzrider]

No that I have any idea how to ride a motorcycle, so bear with me, but is this technique you describe above to tighten the line in a turn what Keith Code describes in his book as?:

"Steering and throttle are linked. Turning the front end into the turn and getting the back to come around can only be done on a few turns in the U.S. Like the old turn #2 at Loudon. You have to muscle the bike to do it and you've got to be leaned way over or it will counter-steer back up instead of biting and turning in."

That's not what I was alluding to, but I can see how you might wonder.

If so, it looks like an advanced racing technique that I'll be sure no to try on the street, although it looks interesting to me since it might be a useful emergency maneuver to avoid obstacles/running out while in a turn.

As a newbie, and after having read the usual KC books and his video, if I see the need to tighten my line while turning (which I'm afraid I have to do more often than I would like too) I just counter-steer to gain more lean angle and then let the front wheel find its balance point around the new tighter turning line, which by the way it does feel like it is looking slightly to the inside of the turn.

I generally tighten my line the way you do too. If I'm out of lean angle, need to tighten my line and don't want to give up speed, I must hang off more. Remember that the front end must be on a tangent to the arc to remain stable, so as the arc tightens, the front end must turn into the corner a tiny bit more. It sounds like Berto is saying he turns the bars into the turn, if we're talking about similar scenarios. The fact is, you don't have to do anything to the bars in this case, as they will stabilize on the new tangent all by themselves.