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The reason that gas is so HIGH is because they're EXPORTING gas and oil!!

Marlowe said:
How is exporting to places willing to buy more "keeping it artifically low?"

It's a global market -- everyone needs it -- those developing nations are using it to produce finished goods to send back to us.

So if you stop exporting it, guess what, you just pay more for EVERYTHING ELSE...
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When they sell off our national supply, that's keeping it low. The world market for gas does NOT effect OUR prices, except in the case of oil. But even then, the supply of foreign oil was never really "low" when the prices spiked. It was really OUR supply of oil that was low, which caused them to have to buy more foreign oil, which caused the price of that oil to go up.

We don't typically buy GAS from foreign sources, just the oil. So for our companies to sell their "excess" gas - to me - is artificially keeping the supply low to justify higher prices.
 
DaveT319 said:
When they sell off our national supply, that's keeping it low. The world market for gas does NOT effect OUR prices, except in the case of oil. But even then, the supply of foreign oil was never really "low" when the prices spiked. It was really OUR supply of oil that was low, which caused them to have to buy more foreign oil, which caused the price of that oil to go up.

We don't typically buy GAS from foreign sources, just the oil. So for our companies to sell their "excess" gas - to me - is artificially keeping the supply low to justify higher prices.
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Huh? Of course the world market for gas affects our prices. The peak of world supply WAS a shortage. There's not much elasticity in that market. Our supply has been low for 30 plus years. So you want Exxon to sell you gas at $2.50 a gallon when they can get $3.50 for it in Germany? Why would they do that? You mistake domestic production with state owned production. They can sell the gas where they want. If want prices fixed, say so...... They're not artificially doing anything. They can sell where they want.
 
DaveT319 said:
When they sell off our national supply, that's keeping it low. The world market for gas does NOT effect OUR prices, except in the case of oil. But even then, the supply of foreign oil was never really "low" when the prices spiked. It was really OUR supply of oil that was low, which caused them to have to buy more foreign oil, which caused the price of that oil to go up.

We don't typically buy GAS from foreign sources, just the oil. So for our companies to sell their "excess" gas - to me - is artificially keeping the supply low to justify higher prices.
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It's not our national supply.
 
matt1216 said:
Yeah I've seen some stuff on this too. A car that can get 100mpg. It runs on vapor. I think Shell bought the patent, and made an agreement that no other prototype could be built.

The guy who invented the vapor carb thing was found dead in the middle of the desert by an apparent drug overdose. I think there is lots of truth to the story.
We know that the oil companies control our society to suit their interests. They were the ones responsible for the destruction of the L.A. public transit system.
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All patents are available for public review. That's the whole reason for a patent system. Try google patent search, has a pretty good interface.

There is no way for shell to buy a patent and keep it a secret or make an agreement preventing others from building it, who would they even make the agreement with? Patents only provide exclusive rights for a limited time.

The only way to keep something secret is to not patent it, and then anyone else can invent it and make money off it.


DO you think Toyota would have spend millions of dollars developing the prius if there was an easier way? I'm pretty sure their engineers have seen the internet once or twice.

And what the hell is "vapor" anyways"

Its nice to believe that there is a magic bullet out there for our energy problems, but thermodynamics is a real bitch.


Going back to the military fuels comment, DARPA is spending money on renewable fuels research like crazy, so they are worried and still looking for something viable.
 
isn't this exactly what the "tax the hell out of gas so people use less" save-the-planet types wanted? higher domestic fuel prices to force a fantastic "green revolution"?

Blame the government for doing what you wanted it to do is kinda lame.
 
it's called a "hot vapor" system.

It works essentially by heating up fuel to just below the ignition point in a plenum before sending it into the fuel system. And you also compress it with a turbocharger.

Problem is, think about how bad an idea a bunch of highly compressed hot fuel-air aerosol stored outside your internal combustion engine is...it easily becomes an external combustion engine if not perfectly maintained.

Seeing a lot of the cars in the 'hood around here gives me no confidence in the ability to keep a hot vapor carb working.

However, it seems that recent direct-injection motors are reaching the same performance levels and are commercially available.

http://www.legendarycollectorcars.c...s-see-and-hear-it-run-in-our-exclusive-video/

of course having owned an iron duke powered Fiero, I have doubts that the bottom end could have survived half that power. I'd have to assume the block was stronger and the crankshaft and bearings modified. Perhaps he used the practically legendary SD4 components for it.



bpw said:
All patents are available for public review. That's the whole reason for a patent system. Try google patent search, has a pretty good interface.

There is no way for shell to buy a patent and keep it a secret or make an agreement preventing others from building it, who would they even make the agreement with? Patents only provide exclusive rights for a limited time.

The only way to keep something secret is to not patent it, and then anyone else can invent it and make money off it.


DO you think Toyota would have spend millions of dollars developing the prius if there was an easier way? I'm pretty sure their engineers have seen the internet once or twice.

And what the hell is "vapor" anyways"

Its nice to believe that there is a magic bullet out there for our energy problems, but thermodynamics is a real bitch.


Going back to the military fuels comment, DARPA is spending money on renewable fuels research like crazy, so they are worried and still looking for something viable.
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Another interesting thing brought up during the recent Libya action is the relationship between refineries and the source of their crude oil. Basically that oil isn't as fungible a good as people may think. If we have a refinery tuned towards Saudi crude oil, it might not be able to readily start processing alternative supplies. Seems similar to the issue here in CA where we get minor price shocks every time the refineries have to switch seasonal blends.

edit: Haven't vetted this beyond a quick google and scan, but it seems to cover what I was trying to point out.
http://bittooth.blogspot.com/2010/12/ogpss-some-limits-to-oil-fungibility.html
 
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It's an interesting business. Valero makes its business refining sour heavy crude. Most US refineries were built to process light sweet Texas and that shit's going fast. Valero is growing because it can process the Saudi stuff easily, which comes light, medium and heavy, but almost all sour. (High sulphur). Nobody has built a new refinery in the US in decades. Cuz even with permits, the environmental obstacles are huge and nobody wants to put out $2 billion and then find out the 23 remaining Darton's voles in the US all live in field 34 feet away.
 
afm199 said:
Huh? Of course the world market for gas affects our prices. The peak of world supply WAS a shortage. There's not much elasticity in that market. Our supply has been low for 30 plus years. So you want Exxon to sell you gas at $2.50 a gallon when they can get $3.50 for it in Germany? Why would they do that? You mistake domestic production with state owned production. They can sell the gas where they want. If want prices fixed, say so...... They're not artificially doing anything. They can sell where they want.
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Since when has the world price effected us? England, for example, pays something like $8/gal. We've never been close to that. Conversely, Venezuela pays something like 25 cents for theirs. So what are we, the average? Like you said, why would they sell it here for $3.50 when they can sell it to England for $8? But they don't. No, no other market has any effect on our prices as far as gas is concerned. Oil, sure, but not gas. Each country has their own formulation, so not much of it is exportable. I certainly doubt anywhere else uses California's formulation.
 
DaveT319 said:
Since when has the world price effected us? England, for example, pays something like $8/gal. We've never been close to that. Conversely, Venezuela pays something like 25 cents for theirs. So what are we, the average? Like you said, why would they sell it here for $3.50 when they can sell it to England for $8? But they don't. No, no other market has any effect on our prices as far as gas is concerned. Oil, sure, but not gas. Each country has their own formulation, so not much of it is exportable. I certainly doubt anywhere else uses California's formulation.
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Gas is around $8 in the UK because of taxes. It's cheap in Venezuela because the government subsidizes it.

None of what you said has any relationship to actual market prices. Read the link I just posted
 
One thing I'm curious about, perhaps Ernie has the answer.

What are oil companies paying the government per barrel of oil? Is it much higher than when oil was $10-15 a barrel, or are they paying the same and pocketing the increase?

Seems like now that oil is worth far more, the oil companies should be paying much higher royalties, especially since it's all (well mostly, since the cost to retrieve should have remained constant) gravy.
 
DaveT319 said:
Since when has the world price effected us? England, for example, pays something like $8/gal. We've never been close to that. Conversely, Venezuela pays something like 25 cents for theirs. So what are we, the average? Like you said, why would they sell it here for $3.50 when they can sell it to England for $8? But they don't. No, no other market has any effect on our prices as far as gas is concerned. Oil, sure, but not gas. Each country has their own formulation, so not much of it is exportable. I certainly doubt anywhere else uses California's formulation.
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Hint: Most of the price of gas in Europe is taxes. ;) It pays things like national healthcare.
 
Climber said:
Hint: Most of the price of gas in Europe is taxes. ;) It pays things like national healthcare.
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and with far more effiecent vehicles and choices of them, it really isn't an issue. no one i Know in sweden really cares that much about he cost of gas. Hell I drove from stockholm to kiruna(hin,: really fucking far) and no one said a peep
oh, and the roads are al pretty much perfect.
 
kevin 714 said:
and with far more effiecent vehicles and choices of them, it really isn't an issue. no one i Know in sweden really cares that much about he cost of gas. Hell I drove from stockholm to kiruna(hin,: really fucking far) and no one said a peep
oh, and the roads are al pretty much perfect.
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A quick search told me that the GNP of Sweden is about $300 billion. California alone is almost $2 trillion. Sweden is equivalent to the GDP of Maryland which is about 15th in the US. It's hardly a comparison.
 
People talk like there are no alternatives now. These cars don't need any gas:

nissan-leaf-black-photo-000001.jpg

tesla-roadster-2.jpg

image_100182580_m.jpg

This Plug In Prius will be available 2012
ToyotaPriusPlugIn.jpg


Natural Gas:
2011-Honda-Civic-GX-NGV-Black-448x279.jpg
 
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Electric cars are fine right now, but the electrical grid can't handle them in quantity yet.
 
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