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HD, Proving P.T. Barnum right

Feanor smart. Especially fourth paragraph. Well said.

There is a place for emotion, sentiment, nostalgia in all of this. I know, because I ride what is sort of a retromod bike. I think it really looks good and I feel good riding it, even though I know that in most ways, it's kinda primitive. I don't pretend I'm just like the knee-draggers or the motocross crowd, but I still ride a motorcycle every day, from point A to B and I'm glad to see the few others out there.
And I'm really glad to see an American company that employs our countrymen flourishing even if I don't buy their particular product. If ever there was a time to celebrate American employment, this is it.
 
Feanor said:
There will always be glory days :)

The genius of Harley Davidson is not just in it's marketing, but I think the recognition (thru a number of factors not entirely a result of forethought) that you can have a sense of exclusivitiy when there really isnt any, or that you can experience that visceral, basic challenge of riding when that doesn't actually exist, and that you can personify a personal aire to others that you don't even have :)...
Click to expand...

Know anybody who picked up a duc or triumph because of the perceived "exclusivity"?

Know any ricky racers on zx10s who can't ride worth a shit but "can experience that visceral, basic challenge of riding when that doesn't actually exist, and that you can personify a peresonal aire to others that you don't even have"?
 
ob1ventura said:
Know anybody who picked up a duc or triumph because of the perceived "exclusivity"?

Know any ricky racers on zx10s who can't ride worth a shit but "can experience that visceral, basic challenge of riding when that doesn't actually exist, and that you can personify a peresonal aire to others that you don't even have"?
Click to expand...

Ooh! Ooh! I know the answer! Call on me! :wave
 
ob1ventura said:
Know anybody who picked up a duc or triumph because of the perceived "exclusivity"?

Know any ricky racers on zx10s who can't ride worth a shit but "can experience that visceral, basic challenge of riding when that doesn't actually exist, and that you can personify a peresonal aire to others that you don't even have"?
Click to expand...

Oops, I thought I made the point clear, but maybe I was typing too fast :)

The point is that in just about every other sector of motorcycle marketing and manufacture, the emphasis is on what is "New and Improved"

This rampant competition with who can bring the best technology forward the fastest has gotten to the point, particularly in the Sportbike segment, that the update cycle has almost become Bi-annual.

Big Piston Forks this year? Fly by wire throttle? Computer controlled velocity stack height? ABS? Fully automatic shifting? and this is almost shadowed by the minute changes to frame construction and geometry, advanced materials, and on and on... 140 HP 150, 160, 170 180, every year sportbike riders expect change... Harley riders embrace "history" even modern history. I would hazard to guess that a lot of Harley riders have no idea how much HP their bikes produce, because that is a non issue. Conversely every sportbike rider know exactly how much their bikes make (or are claimed to make) because that marks the evolution of change from year to year for a sportbike. To a Harley rider, I think that every sucessive year that goes by makes them happier about their bike, as it gets more and more "vintage" whereas almost every sportbike rider sees their bike as "old" in 3 years...

Innovation and Change measured by performance vs Tradition and consistency measured by similarity to the preceeding generations. Those are the opposing camps of which HD represents the latter (with others)

I would venture to guess that Harley's haven't had a basic design advancement in engine performance, layour, and efficieny in many decades, where the sportbike segment must do this every year in order to even compete.

I wouldn't be surprised if Harley executives were constantly confused by the saying that almost everyone else understands "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" Because in their marketing and sales mindset it is more like "Introduce in January 1958, sell the same thing every single day after that until now" :)

So while HD focuses on image and sales, everyone else must have armies of engineers in order to even exist. In a manufacturing endeavour where you have to build machines, being in a position where you don't ever have to focus on anyhing but your "name" and keep cranking out the same stuff decade after decade with only small changes and freshening is an anomaly, a big one... especially when others fail that put their heart and soul into innovation and change and cutting edge updating... This is Harley's genius, that they engender the success of manufacturing geniuses without having to actually be them :)
 
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Feanor said:
Oops, I thought I made the point clear, but maybe I was typing too fast :)

The point is that in just about every other sector of motorcycle marketing and manufacture, the emphasis is on what it "New and Improved"

This rampant competition with who can bring the best technology forward the fastest has gotten to the point, particularly in the Sportbike segment, that the update cycle has almost become Bi-annual.

Big Piston Forks this year? Fly by wire throttle? Computer controlled velocity stack height? ABS? Fully automatic shifting? and this is almost shadowed by the minute changes to frame construction and geometry, advanced materials, and on and on... 140 HP 150, 160, 170 180, every year sportbike riders expect change... Harley riders embrace "history" even modern history. TO a Harley rider, I think that every sucessive year that goes by makes them happier about their bike, as it gets more and more "vintage" whereas almost every sportbike rider sees their bike as "old" in 3 years...

Innovation and Change vs Tradition and consistency. Those are the opposing camps of which HD represents the latter (with others)

I would venture to guess that Harley's haven't had a basic design advancement in engine performance and efficieny in many decades, where the sportbike segment must do this every year in order to even compete.

So while HD focuses on image and sales, everyone else must have armies of engineers in order to even exist. In a manufacturing endeavour where you have to build machines, being in a position where you don't ever have to focus on anyhing but your "name" and keep cranking out the same stuff decade after decade with only small changes and freshening is an anomaly, a big one... especially when others fail that put their heart and soul into innovation and change and cuttng edge updating... This is Harley's genius, that they engender the success of geniuses without having to actually be them :)
Click to expand...

Thanks Fenor. Your point was clear and it has merit but I was responding to another point I believe you were making.

At any rate, I've returned to sailing from a number of years playing w/ power boats. Tradition or just another way of enjoying the ocean? More rag boats out on the Bay than stink pots. Is Frank Butler of Catalina Yachts a genius?
Are all those Yacht owners out there w/ sticks just acting?
 
ob1ventura said:
Thanks Fenor. Your point was clear and it has merit but I was responding to another point I believe you were making.

At any rate, I've returned to sailing from a number of years playing w/ power boats. Tradition or just another way of enjoying the ocean? More rag boats out on the Bay than stink pots. Is Frank Butler of Catalina Yachts a genius?
Are all those Yacht owners out there w/ sticks just acting?
Click to expand...

Your point is well taken Ob1, and I think I share your love of sailing as well... It is definitely another perspective on how to enjoy the same environment.

I wonder how close an analogy to HD vs Sportbikes is to power vs sail though? HD, though it represents a small percentage of the motorcycling industry, is a very homogenous cross section... With sail, there is a huge spectrum consisting of modern sailboats and racing rigs, all the way to vintage wooden boats, I would think that in alot of ways, there is MORE technology involved in materials and design of modern sailboats than is involved in the average powerboat :)

I was interested for many years in sail design and read almost everything on the subject of sailpower even though I am not a sailor :) (RC sailboats) Their is a TREMENDOUS following of people who are devoted to squeezing just about every ounce of energy out of the wind, and probably just as many trying to come up with new and better materials to make sails and sail structure out of... This must take a lot of effort! For Harley, a few extra pieces of chrome, a new decal on the tank, a catchy name, and the same motor and frame from 50 years ago and its all good :)

I used to subscribe to SAIL magazine and it was chocked full of articles and ads about the newest and latest stuff almost to the level of SportRider :) The only difference being that a grinder is a grinder is a grinder, but what you MADE it out of was the trick part! :) So in truth, Sailboats have an important vested interest in change, even the vintage one's...

So you could take a vintage sailboat builder and you would put him square into the category not of genius, but of craftsman or master, and so you have built in success based on expertise and experience, and for Harley, it's old tech and successful not because it is quality, but because its the same stuff that other people used to have :) So, again, its like being a master without having to be a master, not because Harley purchasers are "suckers" but because you've targeted some visceral part of their desire that needs no justification other than satisfaction :) Marketing genius! Like pet rocks! Not that a Harley is a pet rock, but I hope the point I was trying to make is clear :)
 
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Feanor said:
Your point is well taken Ob1, and I think I share your love of sailing as well... It is definitely another perspective on how to enjoy the same environment.

I wonder how close an analogy to HD vs Sportbikes is to power vs sail though? HD, though it represents a small percentage of the motorcycling industry, is a very homogenous cross section... With sail, there is a huge spectrum consisting of modern sailboats and racing rigs, all the way to vintage wooden boats, I would think that in alot of ways, there is MORE technology involved in materials and design of modern sailboats than is involved in the average powerboat :)

I was interested for many years in sail design and read almost everything on the subject of sailpower even though I am not a sailor :) (RC sailboats) Their is a TREMENDOUS following of people who are devoted to squeezing just about every ounce of energy out of the wind, and probably just as many trying to come up with new and better materials to make sails and sail structure out of... This must take a lot of effort! For Harley, a few extra pieces of chrome, a new decal on the tank, a catchy name, and the same motor and frame from 50 years ago and its all good :)

I used to subscribe to SAIL magazine and it was chocked full of articles and ads about the newest and latest stuff almost to the level of SportRider :) The only difference being that a grinder is a grinder is a grinder, but what you MADE it out of was the trick part! :) So in truth, Sailboats have an important vested interest in change, even the vintage one's...

So you could take a vintage sailboat builder and you would put him square into the category not of genius, but of craftsman or master, and so you have built in success based on expertise and experience, and for Harley, it's old tech and successful not because it is quality, but because its the same stuff that other people used to have :) So, again, its like being a master without having to be a master, not because Harley purchasers are "suckers" but because you've targeted some visceral part of their desire that needs no justification other than satisfaction :) Marketing genius! Like pet rocks! Not that a Harley is a pet rock, but I hope the point I was trying to make is clear :)
Click to expand...

Interesting points Fenor. Need to get on the road (no longer paid to BARF) but if the harley makes it and there arn't too many projects waiting at home I would like to re-read your post.

btw........forget SAIL and pick up your free copy of Latitude 38. It's local, read world wide and imho the best sail rag out there by far. Pick it up at any chandlary such as West Marine or almost any harbor. On line too.

I'm berthed in Sausalito. If you are out that way on a weekend and want to get out on the Bay, let me know.:thumbup
 
Feanor said:
Oops, I thought I made the point clear, but maybe I was typing too fast :)

The point is that in just about every other sector of motorcycle marketing and manufacture, the emphasis is on what is "New and Improved"

This rampant competition with who can bring the best technology forward the fastest has gotten to the point, particularly in the Sportbike segment, that the update cycle has almost become Bi-annual.

Big Piston Forks this year? Fly by wire throttle? Computer controlled velocity stack height? ABS? Fully automatic shifting? and this is almost shadowed by the minute changes to frame construction and geometry, advanced materials, and on and on... 140 HP 150, 160, 170 180, every year sportbike riders expect change... Harley riders embrace "history" even modern history. I would hazard to guess that a lot of Harley riders have no idea how much HP their bikes produce, because that is a non issue. Conversely every sportbike rider know exactly how much their bikes make (or are claimed to make) because that marks the evolution of change from year to year for a sportbike. To a Harley rider, I think that every sucessive year that goes by makes them happier about their bike, as it gets more and more "vintage" whereas almost every sportbike rider sees their bike as "old" in 3 years...

Innovation and Change measured by performance vs Tradition and consistency measured by similarity to the preceeding generations. Those are the opposing camps of which HD represents the latter (with others)

I would venture to guess that Harley's haven't had a basic design advancement in engine performance, layour, and efficieny in many decades, where the sportbike segment must do this every year in order to even compete.

I wouldn't be surprised if Harley executives were constantly confused by the saying that almost everyone else understands "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday" Because in their marketing and sales mindset it is more like "Introduce in January 1958, sell the same thing every single day after that until now" :)

So while HD focuses on image and sales, everyone else must have armies of engineers in order to even exist. In a manufacturing endeavour where you have to build machines, being in a position where you don't ever have to focus on anyhing but your "name" and keep cranking out the same stuff decade after decade with only small changes and freshening is an anomaly, a big one... especially when others fail that put their heart and soul into innovation and change and cutting edge updating... This is Harley's genius, that they engender the success of manufacturing geniuses without having to actually be them :)
Click to expand...

I really do see your point but I must disagree on one point. While Harley does make some antiquated bikes I don't think you understand some of the advancements that have been made. I don't think a lot of 50's motorcycles had fuel injection or abs. Self cancelling turn signals, etc. I'm sure they have their fair share of enginears working for them. They even have water cooled bikes like the vrods.
 
theAmazingKickstand said:
Why do Harley's cost so much and why is it a better purchase than something else that offer similar qualities?
Click to expand...

Because that's what people will pay. If that weren't true, the Motor Company would have gone out of business years ago.

Feanor, dude, tl;dr.
 
flying_hun said:
Because that's what people will pay. If that weren't true, the Motor Company would have gone out of business years ago.

Feanor, dude, tl;dr.
Click to expand...

Of all people I really get that. Coke and Mcdonalds has alots customers too.....
You answered only half the question though. The easy half.
 
theAmazingKickstand said:
Why do Harley's cost so much and why is it a better purchase than something else that offer similar qualities?
Click to expand...

theAmazingKickstand said:
Of all people I really get that. Coke and Mcdonalds has alots customers too.....
You answered only half the question though. The easy half.
Click to expand...

The first question you asked was why they "cost" so much, assuming you mean "cost" as in cost of purchase, I answered that question. If you meant "cost" as in cost accounting, I didn't bother. So, yes, you did ask that question. You also asked another question about why people buy them, and I'm not qualified to answer that one.
 
flying_hun said:
Because that's what people will pay. If that weren't true, the Motor Company would have gone out of business years ago.

Feanor, dude, tl;dr.
Click to expand...

What does tll;dr mean?
 
Versystim said:
I really do see your point but I must disagree on one point. While Harley does make some antiquated bikes I don't think you understand some of the advancements that have been made. I don't think a lot of 50's motorcycles had fuel injection or abs. Self cancelling turn signals, etc. I'm sure they have their fair share of enginears working for them. They even have water cooled bikes like the vrods.
Click to expand...

A lot of the points are made better with just a little bit of dramatics for emphasis, but you're right, Harley has made some advancements it's true but FAR in arears of every other manufacturer... The point being, their advancements are made when those innovations are already "old" to everyone else :) and I would argue that alot of those changes were made not to make HDs more "advanced" or cutting edge, but as a hedge against a level of malfunction that would be overly hard to absorb as far as warranty work and bad press... Fuel injection because no one would be able to keep the carb versions running well, self cancelling turn signals as a reduction in liability in a litigation happy society...

I'm willing to bet that if it were possible in California, HDs would have no signals at all, or mirrors, and the riders of course would wear only bandanas if they could :)

In the end, Harley's "trail" as much as is legally and practically possible to hold on to as much nostalgia as it can... I see this same mentality in the Vespa scooter community, vintage enthusiasts specifically looking for collectible scooters BECAUSE they came with no mirrors or turn signals...
 
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flying_hun said:
Because that's what people will pay. If that weren't true, the Motor Company would have gone out of business years ago.

Feanor, dude, tl;dr.
Click to expand...

Sorry about that, but its a subject where "sound byte" just can't cover it, otherwise it would have been a dead subject decades ago...
 
Feanor said:
I think that's why it causes so much confusion to some when HD never updates their motors, or retains antiquated styling.
Click to expand...
I don't think there is any confusion among HD naysayers: the company is simply selling a desirable image (of the "bad boy", the "outlaw", and all that risible nonsense) to people that go through their mid-life crisis and want an affirmation from their social environment that their true self is not that of the plodding sybarite they had been projecting all their life.

And that quintessential HD image has absolutely nothing to do with technical matters concerning the actual construction of the motorcycle.

Care to guess the average age of Harley riders?
 
johnkol said:
I don't think there is any confusion among HD naysayers: the company is simply selling a desirable image (of the "bad boy", the "outlaw", and all that risible nonsense) to people that go through their mid-life crisis and want an affirmation from their social environment that their true self is not that of the plodding sybarite they had been projecting all their life.

And that quintessential HD image has absolutely nothing to do with technical matters concerning the actual construction of the motorcycle.

Care to guess the average age of Harley riders?
Click to expand...

I would have to say 36, because it splits 20 and 52 :)
 
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