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Old 02-26-2018, 05:58 PM   #1
thasmydjay
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Sonoma raceway lowside

Hello BARF,

Here is a video of my lowside on the out lap. This happened at about 2:40 PM this past Sunday, it was a pretty cold weekend. I'm not too sure what I did wrong, maybe it was a combination of different factors? I was running tire warmers and my tires are supercorsas. I am a C group rider, so that's that. Thanks in advance for your input!

https://youtu.be/mgYxZNo8FGk
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Old 02-26-2018, 06:27 PM   #2
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this looks like a pretty simple one actually. u kept adding throttle while adding lean angle in an attempt to turn more and accelerate at the same time. its a common mistake that ull want to correct asap. finish the turn first, then accelerate. ull go faster and be safer.

a few other related things and contributing factors...
- u did the same thing the turn before... coasted into the corner, then started accelerating while still adding lean angle. "accelerating through the corner" is an ok street technique, but a terrible track one. normally I wouldn't nit-pick an out lap so much, but ya.
- tires can lose A LOT of heat when its cold, windy, u sit on the grid, u are cruising around, etc. u didnt brake hard before crashing. so really, the entire start of the vid to the crash is the front tire losing heat. if it was warm and u weren't on your out-lap, u probably could have done that and not crashed. but that doesn't really matter. we always must ride within the grip of the tires.
- the crest in the track didnt help, but only by a tiny bit.
- your out lap is a great time to do some hard braking and hard accelerating with almost no lean angle. thats the best way to heat tires and it gets u around the track safely and quickly.
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Old 02-26-2018, 10:03 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by stangmx13 View Post
this looks like a pretty simple one actually. u kept adding throttle while adding lean angle in an attempt to turn more and accelerate at the same time. its a common mistake that ull want to correct asap. finish the turn first, then accelerate. ull go faster and be safer.

a few other related things and contributing factors...
- u did the same thing the turn before... coasted into the corner, then started accelerating while still adding lean angle. "accelerating through the corner" is an ok street technique, but a terrible track one. normally I wouldn't nit-pick an out lap so much, but ya.
- tires can lose A LOT of heat when its cold, windy, u sit on the grid, u are cruising around, etc. u didnt brake hard before crashing. so really, the entire start of the vid to the crash is the front tire losing heat. if it was warm and u weren't on your out-lap, u probably could have done that and not crashed. but that doesn't really matter. we always must ride within the grip of the tires.
- the crest in the track didnt help, but only by a tiny bit.
- your out lap is a great time to do some hard braking and hard accelerating with almost no lean angle. thats the best way to heat tires and it gets u around the track safely and quickly.
Hey, thanks for the info. So I shouldn’t mix adding lean angle and accelerating, but rather keep maintanence throttle while establishing lean then once I am at the point of correct lean angle I begin to accelerate? In Twist of The Wrist 2 it says that the throttle should be rolled on “evenly and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.” Does that mean any acceleration while turning or going through the turn? Sorry, I’m a little confused.
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:01 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by thasmydjay View Post
Hello BARF,

Here is a video of my lowside on the out lap. This happened at about 2:40 PM this past Sunday, it was a pretty cold weekend. I'm not too sure what I did wrong, maybe it was a combination of different factors? I was running tire warmers and my tires are supercorsas. I am a C group rider, so that's that. Thanks in advance for your input!

https://youtu.be/mgYxZNo8FGk
Couple of thoughts —

1. I think you were going way too hot for an out lap, even on warmers. I would aim for 70-80% of this speed, especially in Feb at Sonoma. (You can go a little harder in August when the track is 90F by 10am. )

2. The best way to get heat in your tires is hard acceleration and braking. You haven’t really done that yet, so the tires are still quite cold.

3. You tried to add lean angle and power at the same time. This is a recipe for falling over. I think of the turn mechanics like this: turns start with steering input. A smooth transition occurs somewhere in the corner between braking and maintenance throttle. Once you see the exit, point the bike at it with power. More power = wider, less power = keep it tighter.

If you haven’t read “Sport Riding Techniques” I recommend picking it up. Great read.

Hope you’re okay!
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:05 AM   #5
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on the out lap? Cold tires. I disagree with the other guys on where to add power out of 3A...you can add throttle over the crest of the hill, but not on your outlap and probably not as much as normal in February, IME.

It'll take about 1-2 laps to get heat into your tires...the slower of a pace you run, the less heat you're going to put into the tires (with less flex on the carcass). Keep in mind that a faster pace rider may be putting more heat into their tires quicker.

Anyway...Cold tires. It sucks.
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:13 AM   #6
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Thanks everyone for the input. Are there any additional sources of information you all recommend about the basics of throttle control, when to add lean angle, etc.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvGc1tWPeb0&t=49s

This video is of the session prior, any tips on what else I should work on?

I really appreciate it fellas.
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:16 AM   #7
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It looks like body position could have been a factor also. In every corner your head moves to the inside as your going through the turn. You want to set your body/head position before the turn.
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:29 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by thasmydjay View Post
Hello BARF,

Here is a video of my lowside on the out lap. This happened at about 2:40 PM this past Sunday, it was a pretty cold weekend. I'm not too sure what I did wrong, maybe it was a combination of different factors? I was running tire warmers and my tires are supercorsas. I am a C group rider, so that's that. Thanks in advance for your input!

https://youtu.be/mgYxZNo8FGk
Outlap? I was surprised you made it as far as you did. You went out wayyyyyyyyyyy to fast and aggressively. You were in third gear before the end of the hot pits. That's a huge no no.

Don't go out fast on an outlap, tire warmers or no. Particularly at Sonoma, which is slippery as can be on a cold day.

Here's an invaluable resource. Listen to all of them. https://soundcloud.com/ken-hill-534763963

What happened was cold tires ( tire warmers don't bring your tires to the temp they need, they just warm them.) You exit at 3a was far too aggressive on the throttle.

The best thing you can take out of this is to use the first lap ( or two) to get heat into your tires and suspension.
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Last edited by afm199; 02-27-2018 at 08:33 AM..
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:36 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by thasmydjay View Post
Thanks everyone for the input. Are there any additional sources of information you all recommend about the basics of throttle control, when to add lean angle, etc.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvGc1tWPeb0&t=49s

This video is of the session prior, any tips on what else I should work on?

I really appreciate it fellas.
You are missing all of your apexes by feet.

Apexes are mandatory, not optional.

Until you get your lines under control you are stuck where you are. Lines first. Don't worry about lean angle, body position, get your lines under control.

You're not afraid to get into the throttle and wind it out, that's good. You do need to work on bike placement. Above everything else.

Here's a vid of Ken at the same track, might help give you an idea of proper lines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-JyhCHFarg
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:42 AM   #10
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I watched it without sound (at work) you definitely got hard on the throttle while adding a fair bit of lean. Kind of a classic way to low side, especially with as cold as that track was this weekend.

As to the advice in ToTW, that is one of the things that they talk about that gets a lot of riders into trouble (myself included when I started riding). I don't think it's okay on the street or track or anywhere, at least not in the way it's explained. Talking to some of the people who teach there, what they are trying to say and what is being understood tend to be two different things.

afm199 posted up the Ken Hill podcasts. Start listening and taking notes. Invaluable resource that Ken has been generous enough to put out there for free for all riders to glean knowledge from.

Oh, another point of advice - tire warmers ONLY warm up the rubber. They don't warm up your suspension, body, or anything else. Those things still take time to warm up, so regardless of tire warmers, your out lap still needs to be a bit more relaxed so everything else can get warmed up too.
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:03 AM   #11
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that out-lap was def an A-group out-lap (speed, not skill) run by a C-group rider. but hold up. lets not make the mistake of telling someone to slow down on their out-lap without being more specific. a C group rider is already going to have a hard enough time keep heat in the tires during winter. lets not make it harder by suggesting they go slower.... which will probably cool off their tires.

u should go as FAST as possible on all the straights of an out-lap. then, brake EARLY and HARD for every corner that u can. slow down to ~50% of your normal corner speed and take the corner. then, wait for the exit until u have minimal lean angle and roll on the throttle HARD and smooth. your roll on should take about 1 full second.

this is the fastest and safest way to heat your tires on out-laps. anything less, like coasting into corners, just cools off your tires. anything more like what happened in the video is just risky.
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:17 AM   #12
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Hey, thanks for the info. So I shouldn’t mix adding lean angle and accelerating, but rather keep maintanence throttle while establishing lean then once I am at the point of correct lean angle I begin to accelerate?
no not rly. its very ez to get to (your) max lean and ull probably do that before you even get to the apex of the corner. rolling on the throttle before the apex of the corner is too early in almost all corners. ull either run wide or be forced to add more lean angle if u did this.

your acceleration should be timed with your placement on track. stay at maintenance throttle until you've turned enough and are in a position to exit the corner. you want to have turned enough so that u can roll-on and subtract lean angle as u do it.

remember, as u accelerate, your turning radius will increase which sends you to the outside of the track. inexperienced riders incorrectly add more lean angle to counteract this and/or they slow their throttle roll-on. both are incorrect and slow. waiting just a split second longer with maintenance throttle, then rolling-on smooth and hard at the correct time ends up being safer and faster.

Quote:
In Twist of The Wrist 2 it says that the throttle should be rolled on “evenly and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.” Does that mean any acceleration while turning or going through the turn? Sorry, I’m a little confused.
the concept of rolling on the throttle through the entire corner is just wrong on the track. some of the techniques in that book are very old. listen to Ken Hill's podcasts instead.

a pro rider will accelerate any time they aren't braking in most corners, as that quote somewhat suggests. however, they braked all the way to the apex. they turned A LOT while braking and have their bike pointed to the exit. and they definitely remove lean angle while doing that acceleration. u didnt do any of those things, so u shouldn't have rolled on the throttle yet.
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:38 AM   #13
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Thanks everyone for the input. Are there any additional sources of information you all recommend about the basics of throttle control, when to add lean angle, etc.?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvGc1tWPeb0&t=49s

This video is of the session prior, any tips on what else I should work on?

I really appreciate it fellas.
if u come into a corner and find that u are going too slow... tough shit . the mistake was over-braking. trying to speed back up early in the corner can be a bad idea. no need to compound one mistake with another. try to remember how fast u were going and how much u braked, then do it better next lap.

u should use more of the track on some exits. T2 and T11 for sure. most times through T2, u stay right on the exit. why?!?! it took a lot of unnecessary lean angle on corner exit to do this.

your transitions are late. every time u go through the esses or a chicane, u are fine on the first apex but completely miss the ones after. this means that your inputs to flip the bike are late. pre-empt the next turn with your inputs, try not to react after the previous turn.

theres more stuff, but no need to overload u. def watch that Ken Hill lap for more tips.
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Old 02-27-2018, 11:04 AM   #14
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the concept of rolling on the throttle through the entire corner is just wrong on the track. some of the techniques in that book are very old.
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Originally Posted by Honey Badger View Post
As to the advice in ToTW, that is one of the things that they talk about that gets a lot of riders into trouble (myself included when I started riding). I don't think it's okay on the street or track or anywhere, at least not in the way it's explained. Talking to some of the people who teach there, what they are trying to say and what is being understood tend to be two different things.
Yeah, I did their two day school last year and what they teach there aligns with what people are saying here.

Though, in the context of the school and Laguna Seca, maintenance throttle wasn't at all a thing you were supposed to be doing.

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Old 02-27-2018, 11:31 AM   #15
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You are missing all of your apexes by feet.

Apexes are mandatory, not optional.
Ernie's spot on here. When you miss apexes, you essentially make a different track out of the track you're on. That means lean angle changes, acceleration points change...the whole track changes. My common comment to riders "well that was a nice track you were just riding...now let's ride "insert track name we're at" for the first time today".

Quote:
Originally Posted by stangmx13 View Post
that out-lap was def an A-group out-lap (speed, not skill) run by a C-group rider. but hold up. lets not make the mistake of telling someone to slow down on their out-lap without being more specific. a C group rider is already going to have a hard enough time keep heat in the tires during winter. lets not make it harder by suggesting they go slower.... which will probably cool off their tires.

u should go as FAST as possible on all the straights of an out-lap. then, brake EARLY and HARD for every corner that u can. slow down to ~50% of your normal corner speed and take the corner. then, wait for the exit until u have minimal lean angle and roll on the throttle HARD and smooth. your roll on should take about 1 full second.

this is the fastest and safest way to heat your tires on out-laps. anything less, like coasting into corners, just cools off your tires. anything more like what happened in the video is just risky.
Well explained Robert. One thing else to note: on a cold winter day, the track will actually pull heat from your tires the first lap or so. A track without heat is a not too much fun. Your comment on heavy braking and accelerations while straight up and down should be heeded by all trackday riders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey Badger View Post
I watched it without sound (at work) you definitely got hard on the throttle while adding a fair bit of lean. Kind of a classic way to low side, especially with as cold as that track was this weekend.
Normally I'd agree with this comment, but it's not universal. The turn into T3A dictates that at pace, a rider is going to be carrying lean angle over the crest. Without that, there's no way to make the corner...hence the reason people end up on the dirt on the other side of the candy striped on the exit to T3A. This is one of the corners where a rider is adding throttle and lean angle and massively loading the rear tire. Hence the reason he lost the rear...cold tires, side of the tire, blah bleh, bang.
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