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Old 03-13-2019, 08:56 AM   #46
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Canada has grounded them as well:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...7-max.amp.html
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:59 AM   #47
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Surprised Boeing stock hasn't dropped more than it already has.

That's a big problem.
Agreed. If it turns out to be the same fault that crashed the other one, Boeing is going to be in deep trouble.

I'll bet the ambulance chasers have already contacted the families of the current crash, every lawyer who signed up somebody in a victims family will be walking around with a perpetual hard-on.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:38 AM   #48
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It's not that simple. Reread my post. The problem is so many things were changed on the new 737 that it should have required a completely separate type rating (required to fly anything without props or over a certain weight regardless if it has props or not) The difference between the first gen 737 vs this one, the only thing similar is the looks. The training required for some if the advances made is being missed, "because it's still a 737." Yes and no.

Foreign training teaches automation management, for the most part. Their ground school is focused around that. They don't teach a whole lot in the way of systems knowledge, which is critical with a more advanced jet like this. You need to understand why it's doing what it's doing in order to make it stop doing it.

Think of it like the difference between a first and second gen SV650. They are very similar, but they are just different enough that they aren't the same.
How do you explain this then? Seems like American pilots have also been complaining about these aircraft: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...sh/3145393002/

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“The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag,” that captain – who is not identified by name – wrote in a report to the federal Aviation Safety Reporting System. The captain added that part of the plane’s flight system is “not described in our Flight Manual.”
These planes need to be taken out of service until any issues can be resolved. 2/300 crashed. Not good odds. Will not fly on it.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:43 AM   #49
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How do you explain this then? Seems like American pilots have also been complaining about these aircraft: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...sh/3145393002/



These planes need to be taken out of service until any issues can be resolved. 2/300 crashed. Not good odds. Will not fly on it.
Go back to my post about pilots doing pilot shit, and look up a YouTube video called "Children of the Magenta". Foreign countries are very automation dependant. The crash of the 777 in SFO is a really good case study on that. When something goes "off script" they get lost pretty quick.
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:52 AM   #50
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Go back to my post about pilots doing pilot shit, and look up a YouTube video called "Children of the Magenta". Foreign countries are very automation dependant. The crash of the 777 in SFO is a really good case study on that. When something goes "off script" they get lost pretty quick.
Doesn't matter. It's falling into the ground. Because of a counterintuitive software problem. Boeing admits it is a problem. They announced today a new and prompt ( not one month out) software update. The real question is whether the model will continue to be licensed to fly.

There are only a handful of riders in the world who can handle a WSB ride. But basically anyone can buy one, and anyone with enough money can buy an older MotoGP bike. I have a friend who has one. Does that mean they should be riding them?
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:08 AM   #51
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Go back to my post about pilots doing pilot shit, ..
Looks like only specially certified Superior Pilots should fly the Max 8 then! Can we agree on that?


Ooops, OH WAIT! Boeing had formerly said pilots don't need re-training for the 737 Max 8


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Old 03-13-2019, 10:13 AM   #52
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Sounds like they gave us a heads-up:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/boei...-industry.html

https://www.kshb.com/news/national/s...wn-wsj-reports
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:16 AM   #53
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Go back to my post about pilots doing pilot shit, and look up a YouTube video called "Children of the Magenta". Foreign countries are very automation dependant. The crash of the 777 in SFO is a really good case study on that. When something goes "off script" they get lost pretty quick.
This applies in a lot of other industries too. Throw a curve ball at a lot of employees that learned by rote memorization and they fall flat on their face. They are not taught to improvise they are taught to memorize.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:20 AM   #54
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Reading through Boeings side of it, I'd guess that they were trying to minimize the cost/work they would put into the software update and that was the brunt of the disagreements that caused delay.

No free pass for Boeing on that, if they want to take that tact in court they're going to get hammered for putting profits in front of safety, IMHO.

Yeah, there is the certification issue, but at least in the linked article the biggest hold-up seemed to be a differing of opinion on the scope of the update.
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Citing people familiar with the details, the Journal reported that discussions between the FAA and Boeing about the software fix dragged on, in part because of "differences of opinion about technical and engineering issues."

Boeing and FAA officials also couldn't agree on how extensive the software enhancement should be, the newspaper reported. US officials also said the recent government shutdown, the longest in US history, delayed work on the update for five weeks, the Journal noted.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:42 AM   #55
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This applies in a lot of other industries too. Throw a curve ball at a lot of employees that learned by rote memorization and they fall flat on their face. They are not taught to improvise they are taught to memorize.
There is a big but here.

"Glock leg" is a real problem in police forces. Officers pull the gun out and shoot themselves in the leg, because a Glock with a chambered round basically has no external safety. Happens every year. Still a great weapon, but they need extra training.

If I ran a large airline, and had pilots (cops) who had more tendency to shoot themselves in the foot, I'd simply buy a Beretta or other weapon with an external safety, thus eliminating the problem, which could also be solved by proper training, but is real.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:59 AM   #56
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OK it's official now,

The US CIC
has "grounded" the planes of that model(s)

1 minute ago. Story on NYTimes..

Additionally, "The order came hours after ...Canada’s transport minister, had said that satellite tracing data showing the vertical path of the Ethiopian jet at take off and similar data from the Lion Air crash, had showed similar “vertical fluctuations” and “oscillations.”"
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:00 AM   #57
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:29 AM   #58
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Doesn't matter. It's falling into the ground. Because of a counterintuitive software problem. Boeing admits it is a problem. They announced today a new and prompt ( not one month out) software update. The real question is whether the model will continue to be licensed to fly.

There are only a handful of riders in the world who can handle a WSB ride. But basically anyone can buy one, and anyone with enough money can buy an older MotoGP bike. I have a friend who has one. Does that mean they should be riding them?
It's not counter intuitive, it's basic knowledge, and just like what happened with the 320 series from Airbus, it's automation mismanagement. They had to "dumb down" the Airbus for that specific reason. That's essentially what they're going to do here with the Boeing.

As for your analogy... it's weak at best, but if they had paying passengers on the back, no. There is a long list of countries who aren't allowed to fly here in the US because they have proven themselves to either have very weak training, or very poor maintenance.

This thing didn't "fall to the ground". It was crashed. When the LuonAir crash happened, Boeing issya training bulletin. Every system is designed to be overridden or turned off.

I think it's important to note here that I'm not defending Boeing. Nor am I defending the FAA. This airplane should have required either a new type, or specific training. There are a few airplanes out there that do because while packaged the same, the systems are vastly different. This is one of those examples.

With that said, sometimes you just have to turn it all off and fly the damn jet. The most basic modes (stick and rudder) will provide the quickest way out. There's a reason that when we do escape maneuvers (windshear/wake turbulence/EGPWS), WE take control, and turn it all off. There's been more than a few times where I've had to do exactly that. "Why's it doing that?" *click click....click click*" and you fly the damn jet. "Sorry Betty, I don't know why you're doing that, and I don't like it, so I'm going to do it instead." Has automation improved safety? I don't think you can make an argument that it hasn't. The flip side of that coin is what to do when the automation isn't doing what you expected it to.

A lot of different aircraft, especially those with wing mounted engines have some sort of thrust compensation built into their software. This isn't new technology, but it is something different that hasn't been on previous generations of 737, and the rote memorization isn't going to transfer well on something like that.

Turn the shit off, and fly the damn jet.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:33 AM   #59
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Looks like only specially certified Superior Pilots should fly the Max 8 then! Can we agree on that?


Ooops, OH WAIT! Boeing had formerly said pilots don't need re-training for the 737 Max 8


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Nope, that's not what I said. But please, tell me about your flying experience...

Nice to see that your animosity from the PS carries over to every other part of this place.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:34 AM   #60
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It's not counter intuitive, it's basic knowledge, and just like what happened with the 320 series from Airbus, it's automation mismanagement. They had to "dumb down" the Airbus for that specific reason. That's essentially what they're going to do here with the Boeing.

As for your analogy... it's weak at best, but if they had paying passengers on the back, no. There is a long list of countries who aren't allowed to fly here in the US because they have proven themselves to either have very weak training, or very poor maintenance.

This thing didn't "fall to the ground". It was crashed. When the LuonAir crash happened, Boeing issya training bulletin. Every system is designed to be overridden or turned off.

I think it's important to note here that I'm not defending Boeing. Nor am I defending the FAA. This airplane should have required either a new type, or specific training. There are a few airplanes out there that do because while packaged the same, the systems are vastly different. This is one of those examples.

With that said, sometimes you just have to turn it all off and fly the damn jet. The most basic modes (stick and rudder) will provide the quickest way out. There's a reason that when we do escape maneuvers (windshear/wake turbulence/EGPWS), WE take control, and turn it all off. There's been more than a few times where I've had to do exactly that. "Why's it doing that?" *click click....click click*" and you fly the damn jet. "Sorry Betty, I don't know why you're doing that, and I don't like it, so I'm going to do it instead." Has automation improved safety? I don't think you can make an argument that it hasn't. The flip side of that coin is what to do when the automation isn't doing what you expected it to.

A lot of different aircraft, especially those with wing mounted engines have some sort of thrust compensation built into their software. This isn't new technology, but it is something different that hasn't been on previous generations of 737, and the rote memorization isn't going to transfer well on something like that.

Turn the shit off, and fly the damn jet.
I agree with you. See my Glock analogy. If cops keep shooting themselves in the leg, it's cheaper to buy a Beretta.
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