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Old 01-27-2021, 04:03 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by scratchpad View Post
Those (2) 8 laps races on Sat and (1) 20 lap race on Sunday equal the difference of additional time/laps done between an AFM practice day (Sat/Sun) and CRA practice (Sat/Sun) plus qualifying.

Even with (3) races/practice with AFM it still equals more track time than those (3) longer races/practice with CRA by my scratchpad math.

50% increase for who?

CRA has half the amount of classes as well. It should help with pairing races/waves together. It sucks coming in hot on the 4th wave beginning of lap 2.

Only time will tell.
I don't understand what you are trying to say about track time with practice and qualifying.

50% increase in entry fee cost for racers, of course. If you include AFM practice in the comparison, CRA won't seem THAT expensive. But I suspect it'll be a big increase those that don't do a Fri trackday or AFM Sat practice.

CRA doesn't have half the classes. Counting expert and amateur, they have 56 classes. That addition of Harley and Electric with Ex/Am, and 40yr & Women really bloated their total. I can't imagine they expect to run them all. I think AFM is 61 - I can't remember which classes don't have Novice. WERA looks to be 49.

If they run those long GT races with Expert and Amateur together some racers may get lapped 2-4x - same wave or not. That'll suck. I think its impossible for the long races to separate Ex and Am though because that's too many 20 lap races for one day. Their Gold Cup Expert-only races may be more fun.
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Old 01-27-2021, 04:19 PM   #47
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I think AFM is 61 - I can't remember which classes don't have Novice.
Only Formula Pacific doesn't have Novice, and only Clubman light/middle/heavy do not have Expert. Qualifying is also experts only for all Formula classes.
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Old 01-27-2021, 04:39 PM   #48
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Cool, thats what I guessed when I counted.
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Old 01-27-2021, 05:44 PM   #49
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Berto, does the AFM bring in enough $$ on Sat to cover those expenses? Given the high cost of practice and the fact Iíve talked to plenty of ppl that skip Sat, Iíve been assuming not.
The riders who skip practice are not that many, believe it or not. We'd like to get all riders to run practice, but some riders seem to think racing is a "value" proposition and not a competitiveness proposition. There no way a Friday trackday prepares an AFM rider for their imminent races. I don't know any competitive racers who are skipping AFM practice for Friday practice and remaining competitive. Many will do both days. You know the value of practicing exclusively with your competition VS street riders and people in other classes/ at slower paces.

We do well on Saturday relative to Sunday. If Saturday is a bad haul, Sunday will be a bad haul, given we're a two day event format. What hurts us disproportionately is a Saturday with many crashes.

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How about ditch trophies all together, except for (premier) FP and Formula classes. Then, no trophy for a class with less than 6-8 participants. I understand AFM is a "Bay Area" club so you WILL hurt some feelings with doing that.

How much could the club save?

Im waiting for the fees to be released for this new race club CRA. They are looking more and more appealing as of right now with the longer races.
Since Ben-Hur, trophies have been fought over by racers. Those things are gold to most racers, especially those who don't have them and are trying to get them. cutting trophies would cut fees around $15 a rider/ a weekend or so. That's all trophies.

The best thing we can do to bring our costs down as a club is bring in more riders.
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Old 01-27-2021, 09:15 PM   #50
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It took a LOT of Civics and Accords for Honda to afford F1 racing. I think the folks that keep promoting a MotoAmerica Lite version of AFM have lost sight of the fact that AFM is club racing and it's the "fly over" classes that are a big part of what keeps the AFM machine going.

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Old 01-28-2021, 05:32 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by stangmx13 View Post
I don't understand what you are trying to say about track time with practice and qualifying.

CRA doesn't have half the classes. Counting expert and amateur, they have 56 classes. That addition of Harley and Electric with Ex/Am, and 40yr & Women really bloated their total. I can't imagine they expect to run them all. I think AFM is 61 - I can't remember which classes don't have Novice. WERA looks to be 49.

If they run those long GT races with Expert and Amateur together some racers may get lapped 2-4x - same wave or not. That'll suck. I think its impossible for the long races to separate Ex and Am though because that's too many 20 lap races for one day. Their Gold Cup Expert-only races may be more fun.
Did you estimate "a 50% increase in fuel and tire costs at a minimum"? That was what i was referring to. I'm not seeing what youre referring to as an 50% increase in fuel and tires. Maybe im not understanding you.

I went to their rulebook and read their class chart wrong. It looks as if theyre combining expert and amateur together except for 600 and 1000 though.
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Old 01-28-2021, 05:37 AM   #52
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Since Ben-Hur, trophies have been fought over by racers. Those things are gold to most racers, especially those who don't have them and are trying to get them. cutting trophies would cut fees around $15 a rider/ a weekend or so. That's all trophies.

The best thing we can do to bring our costs down as a club is bring in more riders.
Ok then.

Tough one.
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Old 01-28-2021, 10:14 AM   #53
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Did you estimate "a 50% increase in fuel and tire costs at a minimum"? That was what i was referring to. I'm not seeing what youre referring to as an 50% increase in fuel and tires. Maybe im not understanding you.

I went to their rulebook and read their class chart wrong. It looks as if theyre combining expert and amateur together except for 600 and 1000 though.
Ahh now I get it. I meant its a 50% increase only for race tires and race fuel. I wasn't including practice in the "tire/fuel increase" because its quite variable. Some people use "takeoffs" for practice, others run new(er) tires. Some run pump gas and switch to race gas later. Etc etc.

The diff in practice time is def substantial - ~90min for AFM and only 40min for CRA. That's 2 1/2 trackday sessions. Personally, I stretch my use of old tires for practice at club events. CRA's 40min means I'll be only on better tires. AFM's 90min is half wasted for me on old tires. And CRA's less time will save me ~2gal of race fuel
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Old 01-28-2021, 10:25 AM   #54
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It took a LOT of Civics and Accords for Honda to afford F1 racing. I think the folks that keep promoting a MotoAmerica Lite version of AFM have lost sight of the fact that AFM is club racing and it's the "fly over" classes that are a big part of what keeps the AFM machine going.
Those classes keep AFM's version of club racing going. It'd be hard to argue that it's not working. But I think its safe to assume that you could run any reasonable class structure - CVMA, WERA, USBA, etc - for racing in the Bay Area and it would work.

"MotoAmerica Lite" is funny. Lots of people on other forums have complained that current MA is already just fancy club racing because of the racers and teams that participate (or don't participate).
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Old 01-28-2021, 08:29 PM   #55
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"MotoAmerica Lite" is funny. Lots of people on other forums have complained that current MA is already just fancy club racing because of the racers and teams that participate (or don't participate).
Like it or not, it's because the model (variety, quantity) works in the current moto economy by adding revenue on the margin.
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Old 01-29-2021, 10:24 AM   #56
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Like it or not, it's because the model (variety, quantity) works in the current moto economy by adding revenue on the margin.
You misunderstand. MA being "fancy club racing" has little to do with non-standard classes or exhibition races. Most national series have those - some have even more than MA. MA is "fancy club racing" because the money is gone. Racers aren't getting paid, the number of big rigs in the paddock is low, factory teams are leaving, and factory efforts are being farmed out to lesser teams. The proportion of the grid that's club racers has increased, past what people watching "pro" racing would like to see. I suspect MA fans want a series that's BSB-healthy in the US.

MA doesn't have variety or quantity, esp compared to club racing (or other pro series). And the models of MA and club racing aren't comparable because the customers are not the same. MA brings in a little revenue because of STK1000, Twins, and Baggers. But I'd bet that's just used to subsidize purses for other classes. The real money comes from ticket and streaming sales, not from entry fees. Of course, MA does think adding those classes also adds to sales revenue.
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Old 01-29-2021, 09:51 PM   #57
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I get what you ^^^ mean, but my point is if MA is nothing more than televised club racing, where does that leave AFM? Track days squeeze AFM on the bottom and MA on the top end, so it makes sense for AFM to cast a wide net in an attempt draw entries from both sides of the moto spectrum. I've been everything from fringe back marker to #4 plate, so I understand all sides, but at the end of the day I support the solvency of the club above all else.
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Old 01-30-2021, 09:57 AM   #58
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[QUOTE=Holeshot; I don't know any competitive racers who are skipping AFM practice for Friday practice and remaining competitive.

[/QUOTE]

True. You simply cannot practice race pace at a track day.
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Old 02-20-2021, 07:09 AM   #59
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Riders won't skip Sat practice because the AFM will not let them. It's required for qualifying (that's what the AFM told me).

I am one of those who does not want to pay for practice on Sat and prefer to race more. I don't even understand what Berto is trying to communicate.

What the CRA is doing is similar to CVMA and it makes sense. Experience one and than comment.

I am thankful that we have racing at all in Norcal but will jump ship in a second for another organization if the opportunity arises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holeshot View Post
The riders who skip practice are not that many, believe it or not. We'd like to get all riders to run practice, but some riders seem to think racing is a "value" proposition and not a competitiveness proposition. There no way a Friday trackday prepares an AFM rider for their imminent races. I don't know any competitive racers who are skipping AFM practice for Friday practice and remaining competitive. Many will do both days. You know the value of practicing exclusively with your competition VS street riders and people in other classes/ at slower paces.

We do well on Saturday relative to Sunday. If Saturday is a bad haul, Sunday will be a bad haul, given we're a two day event format. What hurts us disproportionately is a Saturday with many crashes.



Since Ben-Hur, trophies have been fought over by racers. Those things are gold to most racers, especially those who don't have them and are trying to get them. cutting trophies would cut fees around $15 a rider/ a weekend or so. That's all trophies.

The best thing we can do to bring our costs down as a club is bring in more riders.
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Old 02-20-2021, 09:54 AM   #60
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Riders won't skip Sat practice because the AFM will not let them. It's required for qualifying (that's what the AFM told me).
Qualifying is pretty new in AFM, riders didn't skip Saturday practice in large numbers before that either.

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What the CRA is doing is similar to CVMA and it makes sense. Experience one and than comment.
I am sure everybody has their personal preference. I know a lot of AFM racers just show up for Saturday and Sunday, and no weekend practise would mean no practise at all. I ride AFM Fridays and they tend to be a lot better and more consistent than any other trackdays -- but and I still can't wait for Saturday practice every time just so that I can actually ride at pace. To each their own, I guess.
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