BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum

Go Back   BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum > Club House > Racers Corner


Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-01-2013, 11:41 AM   #121
ToxicMark
The dose makes the poison
 
ToxicMark's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2010
Location: San Jose
Motorcycles: Super Tenere, DR650, WR250f, YZ250f (motard)
Name: Mark
The funny thing is the DMV asked me to bring the bike!? Legally, how am I to do this? Maybe just PhotShop a permit sticker?
ToxicMark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 12:02 PM   #122
culverdan
Veteran
 
culverdan's Avatar
 
Barf Roadside Angel Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Napa,CA
Motorcycles: 04 ZX10R 01 CR250
Name: Daniel
Just put the bike in the back of your truck and be done with it..what are the odds you'll get stopped for it. If your riding it well that's another story.

If its in the back of a van heck they won't even see it.

I've transported bikes that were on no op and had no issues..it's a small thing..just do it cops have better things to do then bother you with a no op bike in the back of your truck
culverdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 12:36 PM   #123
Roadstergal
Sergeant Jackrum
 
Roadstergal's Avatar
 
Contributor ++++++++++++3%

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Basel, Switzerland
Motorcycles: Pending
Name: Looney
I believe it's technically not legal.

If you have a non-op trackbike in an unobtrusive van or enclosed trailer and don't drive like an asshat, it will hardly be a problem.
__________________
The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'
Roadstergal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 12:40 PM   #124
MikeGyver
:)
 
MikeGyver's Avatar
 
AMA #2840783
Contributor ++

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Folsom
Motorcycles: 916, 996, Street 3
Name: ekiM
Do race cars have the same BS requirement? What if just the non-op frame is in the bed of your truck? Typical DMV requirements.
MikeGyver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 12:41 PM   #125
Roadstergal
Sergeant Jackrum
 
Roadstergal's Avatar
 
Contributor ++++++++++++3%

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Basel, Switzerland
Motorcycles: Pending
Name: Looney
BTW, I did once ask this Q in the LEO forum. I got some 'should be ok' opinions, but nothing solid. There may not be anything solid.
__________________
The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data.'
Roadstergal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 12:43 PM   #126
Kurosaki
Akai Suisei - 赤い彗星
 
Kurosaki's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: (ಠ__ಠ)
Motorcycles: '09 600RR
Name: Axel Foley
I would pack up my bike and not even give this problem the time of day thinking about it. Sounds like something you'd get cited for only if you were being a complete wad of the highest order to the LEO after getting pulled over for something legit.
Kurosaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 01:07 PM   #127
JPK
Veteran
 
JPK's Avatar
 
Contributor +

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Los Gatos
Motorcycles: N/A
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadstergal View Post
BTW, I did once ask this Q in the LEO forum. I got some 'should be ok' opinions, but nothing solid. There may not be anything solid.
Sounds like Papi gave a pretty solid answer above. Whether you'll be screwed with for not having the transport permit is a separate question, but the legal requirement is pretty clear.
__________________
-------------------------------------
JPK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 01:59 PM   #128
Papi
Mmmmm...Faster
 
Papi's Avatar
 
Top Speed Junkie
Contributor ++++

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SoBay
Motorcycles: Classics to Beastly
Name: Papi
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToxicMark View Post
And when you find a DMV that understands that this hauling permit actually exists please let me know. I've gone to the South SJ DMV with no success. Crickets and blank stares. I've tried 3 times over the past year to get the cert rather than non-op my bike. Still working on it.
Just Print Out the form I linked, Print a picture that I attached and ask to speak to a supervisor. They have them, just not an everyday request, that's all.
Papi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 03:16 PM   #129
grindcoreNbikes
Veteran
 
grindcoreNbikes's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Capital
Motorcycles: Supermotos and sport tourers
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadstergal View Post
BTW, I did once ask this Q in the LEO forum. I got some 'should be ok' opinions, but nothing solid. There may not be anything solid.
You don't need to spend the money on this. Here's the explanation.

I'll qualify this by saying I'm not a law officer, DMV or State Parks Service employee, but have bounced this one off of all three and here's the summary. Be warned, the letter of the law is just that, but there's usually a gap between the law as stated and it intention, so here's some clarification. Bear with me, it's long.

The Motorcycle Transportation Permit is intended for use with race dirt bikes operated in a race setting on public lands that are typically covered under California's Off Highway Vehicle (OHV) registration program (commonly the green or red sticker). This permit is essentially the loophole that allows race bikes to not have OHV registration when entering public land for some sanctioned competitions (for example, Hangtown at Prairie City OHV). In these cases, the competing motorcycles will not, in any way, have emissions or exhaust equipment meeting DMV's (or more likely California Air Board's) OHV requirements.

The permit was set-up since all OHVs are usually hauled onto public OHV land in a public road going and registered vehicle (like the back of a truck), and then the vehicle (in said truck) is checked for registration (green or red sticker) by the public agency operating the land. Anything without registration isn't technically allowed use. This permit is essentially considered the replacement green or red sticker for these types of bikes in these types of special cases.

As to whether race teams use or both with this (or if any State Parks officials even still check for these) I can't answer.

The way the law is written, it could be applied to motorcycles in the back of your truck on the highway, but likely won't. Consider how many non-road going vehicles (including motorcycles) are transported in both open and closed trucks and then ask a CHP officer how many times he's cited a lack of a Motorcycle Transportation Permit. The answer is likely zero.
__________________
Vampires MC - San Francisco
grindcoreNbikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 03:52 PM   #130
Zerox
Can I be....frank?
 
Zerox's Avatar
 
Mod Alumni
Contributor++

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: East Bay
Motorcycles: scooter
Name: Ricardo
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoS View Post
Sucker tax.
Zerox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 05:22 PM   #131
Papi
Mmmmm...Faster
 
Papi's Avatar
 
Top Speed Junkie
Contributor ++++

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SoBay
Motorcycles: Classics to Beastly
Name: Papi
Quote:
Originally Posted by grindcoreNbikes View Post
You don't need to spend the money on this. Here's the explanation.
That's not 100% true. The OHV program applies to race bikes that are "off road" regardless.

Second, I've never heard of any DB using this sticker. I could be wrong, but if you can source your statement with original codification I'd love to see it.

Third, the permit automatically makes the MC a non-op vehicle. You do not need to non-op the MC after the permit is issued is my understanding.

But if you have source material that says I'm wrong, scan it and put it up here.
Papi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 06:13 PM   #132
duh_ave
Veteran
 
duh_ave's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Capitola
Motorcycles: xr250l, cr250r, Ex AFM 933, 532, 49
Name:
for the guy not wanting to register the frame-- just do a "title only", no registration

Papi's correct on the permit. Most LEO dont seem to be aware of it, or I bet they would check.
I have been pulled over twice to have OHV reg checked (specifically for this) and have been pulled over a few other times and the reg on the dirty bikes was always checked too. I am happy about this given the recovery rate of stolen dirt bikes is almost 0.
__________________
quote:Originally posted by MLohmeyer

Ya, those brake pads get pretty expensive. That's part of what I meant about racing vs. just doing track days. Why waste a perfectly good brake pad if you aren't trying to win a trophy.


"It's frustrating if you're a microbe that's been wandering the Universe for a million years to then die striking the surface of Europa," --Dr Gladman
duh_ave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 07:52 PM   #133
grindcoreNbikes
Veteran
 
grindcoreNbikes's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Capital
Motorcycles: Supermotos and sport tourers
Name:
Fair enough, here's some more counters:

-The section of the California Vehicle Code that pertains to a motorcycle transportation permit are §38088 and §38232, both housed under Division 16 for Off-Highway vehicles. This is what led to the explanation from my DMV associate in regards to it's intention for OHV use.

-38088 specifically mentions the vehicle is to be used closed course racing. This is different from typical Off-Highway registration, which doesn't limit a vehicle to a close course, and allows for use on designated public lands.

Here's the references to CVC for the permit:

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/reg_hdbk/ch25/ch25_13.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papi View Post
That's not 100% true. The OHV program applies to race bikes that are "off road" regardless.
Again, closed course is the key language here. We're not talking the open motocross track, but closed course, designated race track. And, in 1976 when this permit became effective, there were (probably more) race tracks housed on public lands that were, at times, used for closed course events for motorcycles that had neither on highway or off highway registration status.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papi View Post
Second, I've never heard of any DB using this sticker. I could be wrong, but if you can source your statement with original codification I'd love to see it.
I'm not sure what DB is (Dune Buggy?). If that's the case, a buggy wouldn't since this permit is specific to racing motorcycles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papi View Post
Third, the permit automatically makes the MC a non-op vehicle. You do not need to non-op the MC after the permit is issued is my understanding.
Nothing in the relevant vehicle code says that the status goes to or must be non-op. The permit (which is issued to the motorcycle, not the hauler) is nonrenewable, nontransferable, and becomes invalid when the vehicle for which it was issued is sold or dismantled.

That being said, having a valid registration (either on or off highway) and bothering with the permit seems duplicitous.

In all honesty, I'd love to hear what a lawyer who specialized in California Vehicle Code has to say to weigh on this.
__________________
Vampires MC - San Francisco
grindcoreNbikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 10:17 PM   #134
Papi
Mmmmm...Faster
 
Papi's Avatar
 
Top Speed Junkie
Contributor ++++

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SoBay
Motorcycles: Classics to Beastly
Name: Papi
Quote:
Originally Posted by grindcoreNbikes View Post
Fair enough, here's some more counters:
I have one question for you specifically:

How many Motorcycles have you applied a Transportion Permit for?


Quote:
Originally Posted by grindcoreNbikes View Post
I'm not sure what DB is (Dune Buggy?). If that's the case, a buggy wouldn't since this permit is specific to racing motorcycles.
Dirt Bike

Quote:
Originally Posted by grindcoreNbikes View Post
That being said, having a valid registration (either on or off highway) and bothering with the permit seems duplicitous.
Which is why OHV Stickers/Reg Cover Off Road Dirt Bikes, Not the Transportation Permit.

From your link, the CVC states:
"A special Motorcycle Transportation Permit may be issued for the purpose of transporting a racing motorcycle to and from racing events."

Where does it state specifically a "racing motorcycle" is a Dirt Bike? It doesn't. Because unless the bike was purchased via MSO only (like a factory racer), it's unlikely a DB used and purchased in CA would not have a green or red ohv sticker.

Form 712 States:
"I further certify that this motorcycle is used exclusively in racing events on a closed course."

Here's more since we are citing CVC:


15.005 Definitions

Off-Highway Vehicle (OHV) (CVC §38012)

Includes, but is not limited to any:

• motorcycle or motor-driven cycle, except for any motorcycle eligible for a special transportation identification permit. See "Racing Motorcycles" below.
• snowmobile or other vehicle designed to travel over snow or ice in whole or in part on skis, belts, or cleats. (CVC §557)
• motor vehicle commonly referred to as a sand buggy, dune buggy, all-terrain vehicle, jeep, trail bike or go-cart.

Racing Motorcycles (CVC §38088)

Motorcycles certified by the owner as used exclusively on a closed course in competitive events.

A "closed course" includes a speedway, racetrack, or a prescribed and defined route of travel on or off a highway that is closed to all motor vehicles other than the participants’ vehicles. (CVC §38014)
• A racing motorcycle not factory-equipped with a spark arrester cannot become qualified for off-highway identification by the addition of a spark arrester at a later date.
NOTE: A special Motorcycle Transportation Permit may be issued for the purpose of transporting a racing motorcycle to and from racing events. Refer to section 15.030 for the application requirements.

15.025 Exemptions from OHV Identification (CVC §38010)

The following vehicles are exempt from OHV identification:

Any racing motorcycle which carries a Motorcycle Transportation Permit while being transported on the highway. Refer to section 15.030 for additional information.


Any more questions?

Last edited by Papi; 03-01-2013 at 10:48 PM..
Papi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2013, 11:27 PM   #135
grindcoreNbikes
Veteran
 
grindcoreNbikes's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Capital
Motorcycles: Supermotos and sport tourers
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papi View Post
I have one question for you specifically:

How many Motorcycles have you applied a Transportion Permit for?
None, because I've never needed one based on the requirements and intention.

Drop the attitude and follow your own logic, because we're agreeing on everything we're taking from CVC.

It applies to MSO bikes, or any other bike not falling into the green/red sticker emissions and spark arrestor category. No where does it say a dirt bike is a racing bike, but the definition of racing motorcycle can apply to a dirt bike.

Here's the facts: Neither the DMV nor an officer cares if you transport an unregistered or MSO bike to race on private property, unless said motorcycle is stolen property.

State Parks, however, does check all motorcycles being brought to tracks that are operated on State OHV land. In that case, vehicles are checked for an off highway or on highway registration, or one of these permits.

And yes, Villopoto's race bike probably skips a check by State Parks when the
race trailer rolls in.

And yes, the law is somewhat open ended and vague, but that's why we're looking at CVC and what sections it's under to understand it. And yes, DMV will take your money and put this permit on your motorcycle.

The real question is how many citations have been written and plead guilty for lack of a Motorcycle Transportation Permit?

The answer? I stopped caring about this two posts ago.
__________________
Vampires MC - San Francisco
grindcoreNbikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.