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Old 12-05-2013, 11:13 AM   #16
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......okay Alex, just because I hate, er love, er probably OMFG agree with you AGAIN (what is happening?!?! seriously!?!?), I'll read it.

I like spec tires for production based racing. I fucking hate it for prototype racing.

Last edited by Hammerin'Hank; 12-05-2013 at 11:16 AM..
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:17 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by kelsodeez View Post
i dislike spec tires as well. you should design a tire around the motorcycle, not a motorcycle around a tire.

but having a spec tire levels the playing field between the riders and tips the scales between the factory teams and the others. its a double edged sword. there is no way that you can make everyone happy. its just not possible. Dorna is a business. businesses are meant to make money. is it better to cater to the whims of the riders, or facilitate a change that the companies that pour the most money into the sport want?

personally, i think bridgestone had royally fucked up in phillips island and shouldnt be allowed back next year as the spec tire for the series, but as you said, they have the biggest checkbook of all the rubber makers. they should switch tire companies every year
It does not level the playing field at all. It only does, if, everyone has 10.5 size feet (using Alex's analogy). In the real world, everyone is a little different and likes a different thing. So in that case, a spec tire will "be neutral" to a vast majority of people, be a huge advantage to a select few, and a huge disadvantage to another select few. It is far from "level." Level is letting the person run the tire that they want to run. Run what you want, anything you want, if you suck -- that's your fault. That's "level" prototype racing.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:21 AM   #18
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it does level the playing field between riders, but not between machines, ultimately making the motorcycle more important than the rider; exactly aligned with the ideologies of yamaha and honda.


actually what i meant when i said it levels the playing field is that it gives the riders one less excuse to bring to the table when they lose.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:21 AM   #19
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One thing that Motogp needs is a SPEC victory circle umbrella girl, like that Nascar sprint chick that is in victory circle every time and keeps nodding her head and acting like shes agreeing with everything the driver says, even though she has a head full of air and is only there to show her tits!
Anyhow, carry on!
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:22 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by kelsodeez View Post
it does level the playing field between riders, but not between machines, ultimately making the motorcycle more important than the rider; exactly aligned with the ideologies of yamaha and honda.


actually what i meant when i said it levels the playing field is that it gives the riders one less excuse to bring to the table when they lost.
It doesn't though. Different riders ride in a different manner. If I run with a outside heel down approach, and you run with an inside heel down approach, a shoe designed "neutral" won't work for either of us. That's not level for the rider, or the motorcycle.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:47 AM   #21
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I ride with my feet on the dam pegs so I can run a spec tire!
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:54 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Antarius View Post
It doesn't though. Different riders ride in a different manner. If I run with a outside heel down approach, and you run with an inside heel down approach, a shoe designed "neutral" won't work for either of us. That's not level for the rider, or the motorcycle.
Dude! That's a good description of this issue.

OTOH, the tires are the same for everyone. If the bike builder and rider cannot adapt to the tires, that's their own damn fault. Ride better, build better.

Within reason, of course. For example it was very unfair to do what Dorna did to Honda in late 2011/early 2012...they waited til Honda had spent massive R&D and testing developing the new 1000cc bike for the current tires. Then right at the last second, just before the season started, they said "nope, you can't use those tires that you have spent the last year building your bike around." Total horsehit, that one, but if Dorna wanted to screw over Stoner who had just won 10 races the previous year to decimate Lorenzo, that would be Mission Accomplished.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:01 PM   #23
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Yeah I see both sides of the coin, but for prototype racing I think it just flat out isn't beneficial to anyone.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:44 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Wicked4Racin View Post
One thing that Motogp needs is a SPEC victory circle umbrella girl, like that Nascar sprint chick that is in victory circle every time and keeps nodding her head and acting like shes agreeing with everything the driver says, even though she has a head full of air and is only there to show her tits!
Anyhow, carry on!
If I was an alien like Marquez and had to kiss the same girl every weekend, I would start a rider boycott. At that point up may as well just write in that any rider who wins will provide his girlfriend or wife as the podium girl and market it as an attempt to save racing costs.
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:32 PM   #25
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As usual, you have made your point in an articulate manner. And I agree that spec racing is undesirable at the highest levels of motorsports. I do feel that you are letting the riders off the hook, however.

Of the following three variables, what is the easiest and least expensive thing to change: the motorcycle, the tires, or the rider? It must be the rider. I adapt to the motorcycle I am riding, more than I adapt the motorcycle to me, because that is the easiest and most practical solution. If I was getting paid to ride or drive at the highest level of competition, I certainly wouldn't expect my team to rebuild their equipment while my teammate motors off to victory on the same equipment.

The Lorenzo - Rossi comparison that you make seems to point this out in particular. Mr. Rossi has seven MotoGP championships. He is riding the top equipment. Lorenzo shows every week that Yamaha is more than competitive. And so did Crutchlow. You, despite your dislike of Valentino, sound just like his fans making excuses for him. If someone with that much experience can't adjust to a package that obviously works, then perhaps they should move over and let someone else have a shot. This goes for every racer in all of motorsports.
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Old 12-05-2013, 04:59 PM   #26
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I can see the points on either side, but for me the bottom line is that for prototype racing especially, spec anything just sucks. Prototype means just that - Cutting edge, one-off, thinking outside the box, truly unique and specialized. Yeah, yeah, I know, cutting edge costs too damned much/stumbling world economy/sponsorship money sparce/modern business model - These are the harsh realities but the product, and indeed the show has suffered. And even though I have a lot of respect for the machines these guys are running today, they shouldn't even be calling it protoype racing at this point, because quite franky it isn't really, and it's going to get worse as the regs change to even more "spec" pieces. They should just call them GP bikes, or championship bikes, or whatever. I'll still watch until things become so boring that it's pointless. EDIT: Do I think this will happen? Not likely! Just to clarify...

Spec can work in some applications - take NASCAR for example. They all run nearly the same damn car, but let's stick to the tires. Goodyear does a pretty fine job of producing this base tire, and can change compound formulations/carcass construction almost on the fly in response to certain conditions. And they test. Not quite as much as they used to, but an ample amount. IMO that level of success goes down dramatically when you get to perelli and F1 because the stresses and demands on that tire become so much more critical. But they do a fair job there as well. Also credit the teams that can massage those cars in ways that defy logic in order compensate for undesireable tire charcteristics.

Motorcycle racing is completely different animal. Tires are so much more important to the over-all platform's chances of success for so many obvious reasons it's ridiculous. Especially in a "prototype" environment. It just doesn't work that well, and it sure doesn't produce the best competition. There is just too much that can happen to influence who does well on them and who doesn't, as Zerox pointed out. Hell, that could be one of the many of reasons Stoner quit!

But will we see a deviation in course? Nope, I do not think so. Spec is most likely here to stay. But I also think a compromise can be reached whereby more choices could be offered in the spec lineup that include varying carcass construction and so on. And let them test a bit more. And for God's sake, don't let teams take a year building around one tire and then hand them another and say tough shit, yer using this one! That is just stupid.
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Last edited by RaptorFA; 12-05-2013 at 05:16 PM..
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Old 12-05-2013, 05:03 PM   #27
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Old 12-05-2013, 05:06 PM   #28
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More rose colored memories of all the 'close racing of old day'


And tldr on top of that
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Old 12-05-2013, 05:17 PM   #29
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Raptor, would u dare to call an F1 car "not a prototype"?

JO/Jerry would be pulling his hair out w/ everyone throwing the word 'spec' around

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More rose colored memories of all the 'close racing of old day'


And tldr on top of that
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Old 12-05-2013, 05:17 PM   #30
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There is no perfect solution to tires or fuel or anything else that can be manipulated by money and political concerns to affect racing. Sometimes spec tires work. Other times they won't.

The only thing we know for sure is spec tires are likely here to stay. As Alex mentioned, spec tire rules take money or resources from teams and give them to the sanctioning bodies. More importantly, they give another element of control to the sanctioning bodies which is the last thing Dorna, DMG or anyone else is willing to give up.
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