Net-Moto :: Community :: Racing :: :: Racing Videos Sponsor :: Contact
 Forums   Features   Trackdays   Moto Crash Incidents   Race Team   CMSP Training   Sponsors      Donate   Terms of Service 
BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum  Home   UserCP   Register   Calendar   Members   FAQ   Search  AMA

Go Back   BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum > Moto > General


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-27-2018, 04:37 PM   #196
Z3n
Squid.
 
Z3n's Avatar
 
Contributor +++++ 2%

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Motorcycles: help me prove my commitment to Sparkle Motion.
Name:
The Australian numbers show that smaller displacement bikes massively outsell larger displacement ones (outside of the cruiser category, cause, cruisers, but the Street does do quite well over there):
http://www.mcnews.com.au/motorcycle-...17-road-model/

Unfortunately, there's not a lot of reporting on sales numbers in the US that's broken down with this level of granularity.

But a lot more people can afford cheaper bikes - it's noteworthy that the Honda Cub is a massive seller over there (postie bikes, but still...)

Overall sales:

1 Harley Breakout 1092
2 Honda NBC110 1086 -40.50%
3 Harley-Davidson Street 889 24.30%
4 Honda Grom 848 3.30%
5 Yamaha YZF-R3A 775 -35.20%
6 Yamaha MT-07 726 -29.80%
7 Honda CBR500R 723 -22.60%
8 Kawasaki Ninja 300 694 -35.40%
9 Yamaha MT-09 621 29.10%
10 Harley FXDLS 592 78.90%

Sportbikes:
1 Honda CBR500R 723 -22.60%
2 Honda CBR300R 223 -34.80%
3 Suzuki GSX-R1000 211 57.50%
4 BMW S 1000 RR 209 -9.90%
5 Ducati 959 Panigale 199 -23.50%
6 Honda CBR1000RR 172 -8.50%
7 Ducati Supersport 129 0%
8 Yamaha YZF-R1 120 -39.10%
9 Yamaha YZF-R6 112 72.30%
10 Ducati 1299 Panigale 107 -24.60%

"Sport touring":
1 Yamaha YZF-R3A 775 -35.20%
2 Kawasaki 300 694 -35.40%
3 Kawasaki 650L 331 14.90%
4 Honda CBR650FL 238 -7.40%
5 KTM RC390 209 209 -48.50%
6 Kawasaki 1000 Ninja 155 29.20%
7 Yamaha MT-09TRA 91 -40.10%
8 Kawasaki 300 Versys-X 89 0%
9 BMW S 1000 XR 87 -34.60%
10 BMW R 1200 RS 87 -14.70%

I have zero idea why they categorize the R3, 300, RC390 as "sport touring"

Last edited by Z3n; 03-27-2018 at 05:17 PM..
Z3n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 05:13 PM   #197
Z3n
Squid.
 
Z3n's Avatar
 
Contributor +++++ 2%

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Motorcycles: help me prove my commitment to Sparkle Motion.
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto Beck View Post
I'm just wondering if there is a balance in part availability for a bike and does it make sense (don't give me ohlins but i'd be fine with Showa, don't give me brembos but give me better Nissin's - i don't need 5 rider modes, 15 TCS and 10 ABS settings - give me ABS, give me TCS on or off, and 2 rider modes.

It just seems all or nothing and the all pushes good bikes well over $10k while the nothing provides bikes at the $5k-$10k price point that just aren't that appealing to most riders to want to spend that kind of cash for a more premium bike over what they started with.
Unfortunately, a lot of the US motorcycling scene really dislikes rider aids, so we don't see large pushes to make those things cheaper. We're doing better with ABS, but mostly due to the benefit of the EU pushing ABS as a requirement for all bikes over 125ccs. Traction control is still a "premium" feature, and we'll probably see it trickle down more over the next 5 years, as basic TC systems become very cheap. If the EU mandates traction control as well, I could see it becoming very common, but I think we're unlikely to see major shifts in the general mindset around rider aids in the US - you can see plenty of the attitude here in this thread, about how motorcycles are being failed by the youth, rather than the reality that we're failing to show the youth why motorcycling is good.

If we sold motorcycles as "yes, they're risky but also they're fun, and here's some stuff to help you learn while appropriately managing risk of serious injury", then I think we'd see a lot more adoption of motorcycles as transportation. But, that's anathema to a lot of motorcyclists who are more interested in making sure their sport isn't polluted with the unworthy than actually making sure it persists in the long run.

Basically, if people want more motorcyclists, we gotta start rejecting the folks who gatekeep around motorcycling, and making it easier and safer for people to get into riding. Seems dumb that all the marketing folks on earth can't figure this out, but this is the world where motorcycles are no longer cheap enough relative to overall income that you can just drop money on one on a whim. Purchasing power has gone way down, so your marketing better justify why "toys" are worth the money.

Mostly, it's this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto Beck View Post
For the moto industry - i think awareness is a huge problem - sure we all are obsessed with motorcycles and know what's coming out on the market to the precise date and spec of what's being released but does the average consumer know? Unlikely, mainly becomes investment to generate organic awareness beyond established buyers cost a fuck ton of money and the ROI on that spend can take several years to pay off (if it does at all) - marketers will take these types of recommendations to top brass and get laughed at so the cycle perpetuates where low spend on awareness yields low growth in a category.
Where it appears the motorcycle industry doesn't understand that the "You meet the nicest people on a Honda!" magic doesn't strike twice.

Last edited by Z3n; 03-27-2018 at 05:16 PM..
Z3n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 08:00 PM   #198
berth
Veteran
 
berth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Orange County
Motorcycles: KRS-1200
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
If we sold motorcycles as "yes, they're risky but also they're fun, and here's some stuff to help you learn while appropriately managing risk of serious injury", then I think we'd see a lot more adoption of motorcycles as transportation. But, that's anathema to a lot of motorcyclists who are more interested in making sure their sport isn't polluted with the unworthy than actually making sure it persists in the long run.
The Honda ad run today is Exhibit A in a personal injury lawsuit. Folks complain about the Kawi ad, but there's also the segment that would mix the two.

Fully armored, black leather clad, full face helmet riders crammed on to a 110cc motorbike. Or, worse, stiff, plastic boxes that we call synthetic gear.

There's a reason many ads have open face helmets on them, as marketers like to show the happy smiling people.

I don't want to downplay the safety issue, it's very real, especially for new riders. But train them, keep them from drinking, get the licensed, and give them a year, and the stats just go way, way down, especially with women who aren't burdened with testosterone to bump up the single vehicle accident stats.

So, in that sense, you almost want to underplay it. But it's hard.

I think we've all lost people to this sport, directly or indirectly, especially through a forum like this. But when you look at the big numbers, take out the "Don't do stupid things" factors, and it's not Black Rider and his sickle.
__________________
#69
berth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 09:44 PM   #199
Z3n
Squid.
 
Z3n's Avatar
 
Contributor +++++ 2%

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Motorcycles: help me prove my commitment to Sparkle Motion.
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by berth View Post
The Honda ad run today is Exhibit A in a personal injury lawsuit. Folks complain about the Kawi ad, but there's also the segment that would mix the two.

Fully armored, black leather clad, full face helmet riders crammed on to a 110cc motorbike. Or, worse, stiff, plastic boxes that we call synthetic gear.

There's a reason many ads have open face helmets on them, as marketers like to show the happy smiling people.

I don't want to downplay the safety issue, it's very real, especially for new riders. But train them, keep them from drinking, get the licensed, and give them a year, and the stats just go way, way down, especially with women who aren't burdened with testosterone to bump up the single vehicle accident stats.

So, in that sense, you almost want to underplay it. But it's hard.

I think we've all lost people to this sport, directly or indirectly, especially through a forum like this. But when you look at the big numbers, take out the "Don't do stupid things" factors, and it's not Black Rider and his sickle.
Oh, I don't mind the marketing being totally incoherent / contradictory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u-Y4VBo54Y

I mean, holy crap, Yamaha.

That is what gets people in the door. But as plenty of folks in this thread have pointed out, the dealership experience is terrible, the gear experience is terrible, the community is, uh, questionable a lot of the time, and in general, if you want to "save the motorcycle industry" and "appeal to the youth", might be useful to recognize that bikes don't sell themselves and the barrier to entry is getting bigger as the fortunes of the American populace continue to decline. The marketing can be edgy and cool, but when it comes to the actual training, dealership events, and community outreach, what sold Harleys in America when credit was cheap isn't going to get a new generation onboard.
Z3n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 05:09 AM   #200
zelig
black 'tard heroine
 
zelig's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Typically Texas, but Sometimes San Jose
Motorcycles: DRZ400SM GSF1250S
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
Unfortunately, a lot of the US motorcycling scene really dislikes rider aids...
I for one (single data point) was hugely excited for Bosch's cornering traction technologies (C-ABS/MTC) when they came out in 2014, but have never been in the demographic that buys a new (or nearly new) KTM 1290 or MTS1200. So perhaps it's not a matter of dislike, but "not at this price point".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3n View Post
...so we don't see large pushes to make those things cheaper.
Chicken and the egg?
zelig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 06:42 AM   #201
Chicago_FJR
MSF Rider Coach
 
Chicago_FJR's Avatar
 
AMA #: 687081
Contributor +

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chicago
Motorcycles: Yamaha FJR 1300A ('15)
Name: Patrick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3n View Post

Even sending them to the CMSP is a little hit or miss, cause sometimes the instructors are assholes, especially towards women.... as if they don't already know that.

Reply: I taught MSF for 13 years in IL, and CMSP for 1 year in CA. Of the scores of instructors/coaches in IL I would rate 1 as an a-hole and he is long since gone. I would rate 0 instructor/coaches as a-holes in CMSP. How many years have you taught in either program? What is your direct experience?


Also to those who claim the current generations are weak, I'd say, well, they're going into a terrible economy...

Reply: this was thought provoking, thank you.


When it comes to women getting into motorcycling, there's basically zero support system for them....They show up to a dealership, get blown off by some jerkwad, show up to CMSP, get blown off by an instructor, and they write motorcycles off entirely.

Reply: I used to work in a multi-line m/c dealership and saw that happen 0 times.


Gear choices are impossible given the variety of women's shapes, ... and especially bad for women.

Reply: don't agree with this at all. What about Gear Chic, Scorpion, Dainese, Alpinestars, Olympia, Klim, RoadGear (RIP) et al?


If I were in the industry, here's how I'd turn it around:

Reply: all these suggestions have merit.

If you are teaching people how to ride informally, why not join the CMSP and do it under the auspices of a formal program instead of one-off, hit or miss?
See above.
Chicago_FJR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 07:55 AM   #202
Schnellbandit
I see 4 lights!
 

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Alt-California
Motorcycles: Suzuki Bandits
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3n View Post

I have zero idea why they categorize the R3, 300, RC390 as "sport touring"
Probably going by what people are using them for as opposed to what others think they are limited to doing.

Quite a few people use Piaggio MP3s for sport touring too.

A lot of people tend to think about motorcycling as categories of riding rather than categories of bikes.

When a buyer walks into a dealership and says they want to engage in sport touring they are hustled over to look at the Concours, the FJR and so on, never thinking that for someone who weighs 105 pounds, stands 5 foot nothing can be thrilled sport touring on a 300cc bike that has risers, a taller windscreen and soft bags to go with it.

That buyer probably walks out.
Schnellbandit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 11:37 AM   #203
BeksNY
Home of the Pinkstich(tm)
 
BeksNY's Avatar
 
Undersecretary of Fun

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Antioch, CA
Motorcycles: 2017 BMW F700 GS; 1997 BMW R850R; 2018 Ninja 400
Name: Bekah/Beks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago_FJR View Post
See above.
Re: your experience working at a dealership and not seeing women getting blown off...

I can tell you that sometimes it happens so subtly you may not have realized that you saw it. For example, when I walk into a dealership with my other half, a lot of the time, the salesperson will break the ice by asking my husband what he rides. The salesperson typically doesn't ask what I ride (perhaps assuming I am a full-time passenger) and continues to engage my husband on what his preferences of bikes, gear, whatever. To me, that's getting blown off and it has made me walk out of dealerships without bothering to explain why they're losing my business. And, frankly, they may not have even realized that I was their potential customer that day because of the focus on my husband.
__________________
Glitter is my favorite color.

"Like a flamingo with wheels." -tzrider
BeksNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 12:37 PM   #204
Moto Beck
The Longest Title Allowed
 
Moto Beck's Avatar
 
AMA #3692965
Contributor +

Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Bay
Motorcycles: '18 Triumph 765 RS
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeksNY View Post
To me, that's getting blown off and it has made me walk out of dealerships without bothering to explain why they're losing my business. And, frankly, they may not have even realized that I was their potential customer that day because of the focus on my husband.
I know as a man - i cannot understand your frustration in the same way you do but i very much sympathize with your comment. And I will admit i've been guilty of asking a guy first who was standing next to a liter bike if it was his instead of the woman who was also standing next to it (it ended up being her bike).

I also get not wanting to be bothered - but as you state - being blown off in your opinion can be very subtle as the situation you describe - how do you think the moto industry will change its view on selling to women if you don't provide feedback vs. simply walking out and leaving why you did up to guessing if any thought was put to it by the sale rep at all?

People don't know what they don't know - i'm not saying the behavior at the dealership(s) you went to is right or justified but law of averages probably well in their favor that 50 people who walk through their door in a given day 49 of them are men looking to buy a bike.

Wouldn't doing the opposite of what you did - speaking out and informing the sales rep that there are women buyers and that you were looking to buy and now won't because of that behavior help in educating them to think differently?

In the example i gave above about asking the guy before the woman - she spoke up and called me out on it. I was so embarrassed to say the least and apologized several times. I haven't done that again since that day.
Moto Beck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 12:45 PM   #205
berth
Veteran
 
berth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Orange County
Motorcycles: KRS-1200
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeksNY View Post
Re: your experience working at a dealership and not seeing women getting blown off...

I can tell you that sometimes it happens so subtly you may not have realized that you saw it. For example, when I walk into a dealership with my other half, a lot of the time, the salesperson will break the ice by asking my husband what he rides. The salesperson typically doesn't ask what I ride (perhaps assuming I am a full-time passenger) and continues to engage my husband on what his preferences of bikes, gear, whatever. To me, that's getting blown off and it has made me walk out of dealerships without bothering to explain why they're losing my business. And, frankly, they may not have even realized that I was their potential customer that day because of the focus on my husband.
Just curious why your husband didn't just point to you and tell the sales guy "She's the one shopping today, not me", or simply inform them that you're both looking for stuff. That's what I do when that happens to us (in any store for any purpose).

Not trying to justify his behavior, but communication is a two way street, and if the guy didn't know he was doing something wrong, pretty sure if you went in again, it would happen again.

I think we can all agree that for the vast majority of those situations, the sales person isn't necessarily off base. (/me points to recent BARF survey and the demographic results of people who are: interested in motorcycles, frequent internet forums, and take internet surveys).
__________________
#69
berth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 01:58 PM   #206
Z3n
Squid.
 
Z3n's Avatar
 
Contributor +++++ 2%

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Motorcycles: help me prove my commitment to Sparkle Motion.
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by zelig View Post
I for one (single data point) was hugely excited for Bosch's cornering traction technologies (C-ABS/MTC) when they came out in 2014, but have never been in the demographic that buys a new (or nearly new) KTM 1290 or MTS1200. So perhaps it's not a matter of dislike, but "not at this price point".



Chicken and the egg?
Yeah, it's gonna solve itself over time. You can get nice, used bikes with the full electronics suite for around 5-7k now, which is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago_FJR View Post
See above.
Briefly - I don't work with CMSP or the like due to time. I can spend a couple of hours helping a friend learn to ride a few times a year, but the whole commit of weekends, etc, is a bit much for me.

When you say you've never seen this happen, well, I don't quite know what to say here, cause every woman I know who rides has either a laughing experience about it or a "I'm never going back to that dealership because jfc never want to step foot in that place again after how they treated me". Not to mention the reactions my wife gets when she was riding her 999, 1290 SuperDuke, etc. It's endemic to the community. The endless commentary about "that's a big bike for a little lady", the posturing, the generalized commentary is just cringeworthy.

There's already been a couple of women talking about and pointing out that the gear choices are marginal in this thread. Off the top of my head, scorpion tends towards a very unflattering, boxy fit, dianese is built for slender italian models, A* tends towards the same, Olympia and Aerostitch are both not particularly flattering, same with Klim. If you want something that both looks nice, and fits properly, and is protective, you're unlikely to have very many options unless you are a very particular body type.

Hell, we have enough problems around the distinction between CE Approved, CE Certified, DOT, SNELL, ECE, etc, without throwing the fact that a lot of the gear just flat out doesn't fit into the mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moto Beck View Post
Wouldn't doing the opposite of what you did - speaking out and informing the sales rep that there are women buyers and that you were looking to buy and now won't because of that behavior help in educating them to think differently?

In the example i gave above about asking the guy before the woman - she spoke up and called me out on it. I was so embarrassed to say the least and apologized several times. I haven't done that again since that day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by berth View Post
Just curious why your husband didn't just point to you and tell the sales guy "She's the one shopping today, not me", or simply inform them that you're both looking for stuff. That's what I do when that happens to us (in any store for any purpose).

Not trying to justify his behavior, but communication is a two way street, and if the guy didn't know he was doing something wrong, pretty sure if you went in again, it would happen again.

I think we can all agree that for the vast majority of those situations, the sales person isn't necessarily off base. (/me points to recent BARF survey and the demographic results of people who are: interested in motorcycles, frequent internet forums, and take internet surveys).
Both of these points are totally reasonable if you're talking about a friend or a pre-existing relationship that someone might be invested in. But more broadly, at a dealership that intends to provide a decent customer interaction, asking women (or minorities) to start their motorcycling career by calling out their salespeople on their sexist (or racist) assumptions isn't really going to smooth the entry to the hobby. If folks spent all their time pointing out the casual sexism/racism they experience on a daily basis they wouldn't have time for much else. This is on the dealerships and us in the community to stop from happening if we want to see more people join us.

Also, the surveys you point out are primarily sampling from motorcycle enthusiast populations, which are male dominated - however, it appears that those demographics are pretty saturated at this point and if we want to see the industry keep growing we're going to need to reach out to more than just the folks that are part of the community now, and that's going to require work.

(btw - props to you, MotoBeck, for realizing that you'd made a bad assumption and changing your behavior accordingly)
Z3n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 07:19 AM   #207
Chicago_FJR
MSF Rider Coach
 
Chicago_FJR's Avatar
 
AMA #: 687081
Contributor +

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Chicago
Motorcycles: Yamaha FJR 1300A ('15)
Name: Patrick
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeksNY View Post
Re: your experience working at a dealership and not seeing women getting blown off...

I can tell you that sometimes it happens so subtly you may not have realized that you saw it. For example, when I walk into a dealership with my other half, a lot of the time, the salesperson will break the ice by asking my husband what he rides. The salesperson typically doesn't ask what I ride (perhaps assuming I am a full-time passenger) and continues to engage my husband on what his preferences of bikes, gear, whatever. To me, that's getting blown off and it has made me walk out of dealerships without bothering to explain why they're losing my business. And, frankly, they may not have even realized that I was their potential customer that day because of the focus on my husband.
I don't doubt your experience. And I'm sorry to hear it. You are offering a valuable lesson, ie never assume, ask neutral questions etc. Thank you.
Chicago_FJR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 11:34 AM   #208
BeksNY
Home of the Pinkstich(tm)
 
BeksNY's Avatar
 
Undersecretary of Fun

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Antioch, CA
Motorcycles: 2017 BMW F700 GS; 1997 BMW R850R; 2018 Ninja 400
Name: Bekah/Beks
Quote:
Originally Posted by berth View Post
Just curious why your husband didn't just point to you and tell the sales guy "She's the one shopping today, not me", or simply inform them that you're both looking for stuff. That's what I do when that happens to us (in any store for any purpose).

Not trying to justify his behavior, but communication is a two way street, and if the guy didn't know he was doing something wrong, pretty sure if you went in again, it would happen again.

I think we can all agree that for the vast majority of those situations, the sales person isn't necessarily off base. (/me points to recent BARF survey and the demographic results of people who are: interested in motorcycles, frequent internet forums, and take internet surveys).
Oops. I think I made my other half sound unsupportive or insensitive in my anecdote. Let me clear this up. He's awesome and I'm no shrinking violet ( ). Either he or I usually redirects salespersons' attention toward me if I'm the one doing the shopping that day or to prove the point not to assume that I'm a passenger.I've also given salespeople kudos to them and to their managers, when they approach both of us equally.

re: gear fitment -- Z3n did a good job of describing the various body types of brands. Something that looks good on AND off the bike is a criteria a lot women look for in gear. My Aerostich is great for commuting, but I spent a ridiculous amount of time and money looking for armored jeans and an armored leather jacket that I liked. Last year, I finally found jeans that fit perfectly and this year they're discontinued.
__________________
Glitter is my favorite color.

"Like a flamingo with wheels." -tzrider
BeksNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2018, 12:50 PM   #209
berth
Veteran
 
berth's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Orange County
Motorcycles: KRS-1200
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeksNY View Post
re: gear fitment -- Z3n did a good job of describing the various body types of brands. Something that looks good on AND off the bike is a criteria a lot women look for in gear. My Aerostich is great for commuting, but I spent a ridiculous amount of time and money looking for armored jeans and an armored leather jacket that I liked. Last year, I finally found jeans that fit perfectly and this year they're discontinued.
Nothing and nobody looks good in an Aerostich. Pretty sure the overall designs are inspired by historic fashion of Chinese Labor Camps and Russian Gulags.


youtu.be/5CaMUfxVJVQ
__________________
#69
berth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2018, 08:36 AM   #210
Schnellbandit
I see 4 lights!
 

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Alt-California
Motorcycles: Suzuki Bandits
Name:
Having the husband or male go along point to the wife or female and say that they are the customer reeks because that is just one more example of perpetuating the BS. IMHO, (emphasis on humble) everyone walking into a dealership or any other business is a potential customer unless they are obviously underage and not able to enter into contracts.

When its happened, my response is "she was first" or similar without even a hint we are together and then I just look right through them. Then again, I do this even if I am alone and the salespeople show preference to me if someone else was before me.

Last edited by Schnellbandit; 03-30-2018 at 08:39 AM..
Schnellbandit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.