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Old 10-01-2020, 02:10 PM   #556
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One of those that think those people with comorbidities would have died without covid. I mean yeah, we're all gonna die but to ignore the concept that covid escalated their deaths is silly. It exacerbates chronic conditions.

We're down to whatever number you want to use in an attempt to minimize it's risk to the general public. Yes, the elderly in LTACs are members of that group.



I'm pretty open about my thoughts on it. I think lockdown is a bit much but I think American's are more then a bit dumb and selfish.

I think this is more infectious and thus has the capability to kill at a much higher rate then other viruses.

I think we're at a point now where the elderly are being cautious and the LTACs are minimizing risks sufficiently that we can start opening up. We have decent treatment protocols and less people are dying. I think we could have done this a while ago but then again, Sturgis is a great example of stupid. Funny how this was 6-8 weeks ago and now they're in the thick of it. Good thing they lack population density.
We agree on most of the elements. My broader point is that Covid is a driver of the deaths, but not predominantly the actual cause of death. The deaths have become politicized and monetized which has made actual determination difficult. Most certainly Covid has a high infection rate. OTOH, it's survivability among different age group varies and age groups tend to determine mortality when battling the infection. This is not much different with other infections in the same age groups.

I'll just put this out there: you're very judgmental with your data and leave little room for being incorrect. I've found that being incorrect is where I've learned the most, not the least. With a grain of salt Matt, your approach may suit your intent, but also may limit your true reach which is shame. You've got lots of good info, it's just the responses to some folks that put me (personally) off.
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Old 10-01-2020, 02:22 PM   #557
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One of the articles linked here recently made the point that Covid is frequently considered an underlying cause, which describes it as being the thing that starts a chain reaction that turns out to be fatal. Another way of saying it is, even though there were comorbidities, the patient wouldn't have died then had they not caught Covid. This seems to be where we get "Covid related" deaths.

While we can be critical of the average state of health in the US, in the end, our state of health is the environment in which the virus finds itself and it seems to be thriving there. That it kills a lot of hosts isn't its problem, as it has time to find more hosts first.
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Old 10-01-2020, 02:48 PM   #558
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We agree on most of the elements. My broader point is that Covid is a driver of the deaths, but not predominantly the actual cause of death. The deaths have become politicized and monetized which has made actual determination difficult. Most certainly Covid has a high infection rate. OTOH, it's survivability among different age group varies and age groups tend to determine mortality when battling the infection. This is not much different with other infections in the same age groups.

I'll just put this out there: you're very judgmental with your data and leave little room for being incorrect. I've found that being incorrect is where I've learned the most, not the least. With a grain of salt Matt, your approach may suit your intent, but also may limit your true reach which is shame. You've got lots of good info, it's just the responses to some folks that put me (personally) off.
People keep jumping on this monetized piece and it doesn't shake out. You don't write covid on a death certificate and a check shows up in the mail. So there is no run up on covid deaths. While it is true that hospitals get about a 20% premium for treating covid patients, that's really a function of the current fee for service or diagnostic related groups business model that hospitals are currently fixated on. (Yay, you can thank insurance companies for this as they wanted a fixed cost per procedure.) Anyway, the difference between a patient in the ICU or a covid patient in the ICU is about $10,000 or so... ball park. So you would need millions of covid patients for hospitals to offset their elective surgery revenue. BUT let's take Alabame for example. They had 17,257 hospitalizations and 1,815 ICU patients diagnosed with Covid. If ALL of them were misdiagnosed, we're talking $1.8M overpayment for the ICU and $30M in overpayment in hospitalization. That number sounds really big but we're talking 125 hospitals with 33,000 beds on $108,645,638,887 of revenue so $256,000 per hospital doesn't even pay for 2 doctors salaries.

What's that, a .03% overpayment? It's really a drop in the bucket.

As a side note, in order to code for covid you need a positive test result. In order to get a positive test result you need a path lab test result on file. The amount of people involved in a scam of this nature would be too large to keep it a secret. Maybe in the beginning of this when we didn't have tests it was plausible but it really isn't anymore. I'm not sure how many hospitals are doing in house testing so the scam would then involve another company. It's all too unlikely.

I actually try to be fairly impartial with my claims and statements. Well, except towards a member or 2. But I'll take note of it.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:41 PM   #559
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Thanks Matt for that last post. One of the gems I've become accustomed to you writing. That's a good one.
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Old 10-01-2020, 04:17 PM   #560
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Look man, my team is tasked with putting together an internal newsletter on covid every single week. Most of the questions posited in here, I've been asked to analyze already and determine not only validity but solution set. I've poured through countless articles and publications, interviewed countless hospital decision makers, ran many primary research projects on covid and the real impacts to healthcare. I literally consume covid information 5 days a week, if not 7.

So the above is practically a verbatim response to someone who asked that question internally. Is it a real problem and can we manage it appropriately with software. The opportunity didn't exist for us because it's such a small problem financially for everyone.
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Old 10-02-2020, 07:52 AM   #561
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Originally Posted by Holeshot View Post
We agree on most of the elements. My broader point is that Covid is a driver of the deaths, but not predominantly the actual cause of death. The deaths have become politicized and monetized which has made actual determination difficult.
But without Covid 1 million people, and counting, would still be alive, right?

How do you "make money" by identifying Covid as a pandemic?
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:38 AM   #562
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How do you "make money" by identifying Covid as a pandemic?
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Old 10-03-2020, 11:01 AM   #563
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this thread is exactly why Swedens approach would be far less successful here.
thanks, self. this becomes more evident by the day now.
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Old 10-03-2020, 03:46 PM   #564
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this thread is exactly why Swedens approach would be far less successful here.
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thanks, self. this becomes more evident by the day now.
What the fuck are you on about?

The advantage of the Swedish approach is getting to herd immunity WITHOUT destroying the economic infrastructure that supports modern society. The DISadvantage of the approach taken in much of the US--and particularly in California--is that it maximizes economic destruction while making only slow progress toward immunity.

Herd immunity can be reached only when some percentage of the population either has pre-existing immunity to the virus or acquires it by becoming infected (or, ultimately, via vaccine). But many Californians don't grasp this and favor any means available to slow its spread. Reducing the rate of spread increases the time needed to achieve the necessary penetration, and at the same time causes what will soon (or already has) become irreparable damage to the society and economy.

The reason the Swedish approach wouldn't work here is that some people reject the undeniable fact that the virus isn't going to just go away. It's here and we must learn to live with it.
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Old 10-03-2020, 10:37 PM   #565
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What the fuck are you on about?

The advantage of the Swedish approach is getting to herd immunity WITHOUT destroying the economic infrastructure that supports modern society. The DISadvantage of the approach taken in much of the US--and particularly in California--is that it maximizes economic destruction while making only slow progress toward immunity.

Herd immunity can be reached only when some percentage of the population either has pre-existing immunity to the virus or acquires it by becoming infected (or, ultimately, via vaccine). But many Californians don't grasp this and favor any means available to slow its spread. Reducing the rate of spread increases the time needed to achieve the necessary penetration, and at the same time causes what will soon (or already has) become irreparable damage to the society and economy.

The reason the Swedish approach wouldn't work here is that some people reject the undeniable fact that the virus isn't going to just go away. It's here and we must learn to live with it.
ok caca mouth. first, Sweden does not have anything near herd immunity and second it's economy has not exactly thrived during this.

third, it is 100% unilaterally agreed by just about anybody studying epidemiology that if the USA as a whole had adopted Swedens approach that the deaths and severe cases that we don't yet know the long range effects of would be many times higher. imho probably an order of magnitude higher, but i'm not an epidemiologist.

i just listen to them, not disinfo spreaders on social media.

anyways here is a good article on what is going on there considering you probably have no idea what is really like.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/co...u-want-believe
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Old 10-04-2020, 01:43 PM   #566
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I'll go along with the "we should just do what Sweden does" as long as that includes faithfully replicating their healthcare system.
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Old 10-04-2020, 01:44 PM   #567
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I really hope that the goal of herd immunity isn’t motivating no-maskers, because we will never reach natural herd immunity before vaccines and treatments expose it for the delusional thinking that it is.

For one thing, the people that have already had the disease, maybe 30% by some estimates, are low hanging fruit. It will take longer before people that aren’t interested in Darwinism do their fair share of the dying.

Even if you could spend the next six months doubling the number of infected, we won’t get business as usual. Americans will not be able to travel overseas, sick people won’t be able to participate in the economy, and local lockdowns will still be necessary when the number of sick severely taxes healthcare availability.

And it’s not even necessary. Wear masks, back off on the clubbing and gatherings and we can still see the economy recover faster.
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Old 10-04-2020, 01:48 PM   #568
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I'll go along with the "we should just do what Sweden does" as long as that includes faithfully replicating their healthcare system.
I’d rather be in an American hospital than in any other in the world from a quality of care and outcome aspect. From a financial perspective, not if I had to pay a lot of the bill.

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Old 10-04-2020, 02:21 PM   #569
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Imagine what the damage to the economy would be if this mythical Covid herd immunity could be reached without a vaccine.

Illness and death aren't exactly cheap, and I don't think people would want to go without a fight.
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Old 10-04-2020, 03:43 PM   #570
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Didn't I read there are 100 million folks with underlying conditions that make them susceptible to dying from covid
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