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Old 09-30-2020, 01:08 PM   #301
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I guess it doesn't hurt that I have absolutely zero fear of heights.
Meanwhile...I'm terrified of heights. When I was a flight instructor, I worked at this place at SZP called CP Aviation, and our bread and butter was an EMT course (Emergency Maneuvers Training). I've never been bothered by heights in an airplane, but being on a ladder, or at the edge of something scares the shit out of me.

I used to fly Japanese tourists from Van Nuys or Hawthorne out to The Grand Canyon so they could do a bus tour. I was talked in to going with them once. When I went out on that glass walkway, I was fine.....until I looked down!. I crawled off the thing on my hands and knees, in uniform. All my passengers were laughing at me. But you could see the lightbulb going off in their heads...

"Wait... that's our pilot. THAT'S OUR PILOT! HE'S AFRAID OF HEIGHTS!!!!"

Mika, their tour guide, never asked me to go again.
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:20 PM   #302
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Old 09-30-2020, 03:23 PM   #303
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I'm the same way. I've flown in all types of aircraft, helicopters, hot air balloons, jumped out of aircraft. I can't stand on the edge of my roof to clean the gutters on my single story ranch.
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Old 09-30-2020, 04:19 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by msethhunter View Post
Meanwhile...I'm terrified of heights. When I was a flight instructor, I worked at this place at SZP called CP Aviation, and our bread and butter was an EMT course (Emergency Maneuvers Training). I've never been bothered by heights in an airplane, but being on a ladder, or at the edge of something scares the shit out of me.

I used to fly Japanese tourists from Van Nuys or Hawthorne out to The Grand Canyon so they could do a bus tour. I was talked in to going with them once. When I went out on that glass walkway, I was fine.....until I looked down!. I crawled off the thing on my hands and knees, in uniform. All my passengers were laughing at me. But you could see the lightbulb going off in their heads...

"Wait... that's our pilot. THAT'S OUR PILOT! HE'S AFRAID OF HEIGHTS!!!!"

Mika, their tour guide, never asked me to go again.
I had a friend who was terrified of heights and even when flying. She’d have to sedate herself to get on an airplane.
I like roller coasters and could not even drag or bribe her onto one. Pissed me off once when we went to six flags and she wouldn’t get on any rides.
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Old 09-30-2020, 04:33 PM   #305
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Yes, they have a branch of the FAA that gets allocated a sizeable budget that studies exactly what you're referencing. It's called Human Factors.
What is the output of Human Factors? Does it weed out people who might not be able to perform under pressure or does it provide a way to condition people do be able to cope?

The tough thing about any simulation is being able to genuinely recreate the emotions and adrenaline dump associated with being truly afraid you're going to die.
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Old 09-30-2020, 07:29 PM   #306
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The tough thing about any simulation is being able to genuinely recreate the emotions and adrenaline dump associated with being truly afraid you're going to die.
Mikey can confirm, but every accident report I've read has evidence(s) the pilot(s) continued to fly the aircraft / solve problems (or attempt to) right to the moment of impact. Only Cirrus pilots panic and pull the chute. A simulator is to drill process which should lessen fear. Then again, I don't know many (if any) pilots that are afraid if dying when commanding their aircraft.

Fun fact: the Crash Analysis Forum idea came from AOPA's accident report column in their member magazine. The accident analysis of aircraft accidents is excellent as a learning tool.
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Old 09-30-2020, 09:18 PM   #307
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Mikey can confirm, but every accident report I've read has evidence(s) the pilot(s) continued to fly the aircraft / solve problems (or attempt to) right to the moment of impact. Only Cirrus pilots panic and pull the chute. A simulator is to drill process which should lessen fear. Then again, I don't know many (if any) pilots that are afraid if dying when commanding their aircraft.
I'm a believer in simulating stress in training and do think it makes a difference. In training self defense scenarios, we have quite a few knife attack defenses, which in a sense is a fool's errand, but they can increase one's chance of survival at least.

A lot of people will become proficient with the defenses, being able to execute violently and efficiently from "total" surprise in a class setting. I place "total" in quotes because the student knows they're going to be attacked at some point, they just don't know when. They also know it'll be a rubber knife.

Sometimes the students are wearing white t-shirts and the rubber knives are coated with red lipstick so you can see if they got "cut." We wear them out, have them fight other people and then randomly rush in with a knife attack. Maybe the lights are down and music is blasting to create disorientation. The student responds like Jason Bourne, countering the attack and disarming the attacker, without ever being touched by the blade themselves.

One evening, unbeknownst to the class, I brought a shock knife. This was a plastic knife with electrodes around the edge. It crackled and sparked and would give you a shock that's about 1/6th of a taser shot. It felt convincingly like you were getting cut.

The most proficient student in class had just disarmed an attacker, when I yelled his name and came after him with the shock knife, sparks, crackling and all. His lost his shit and went home after class smelling like burnt hair.

Had it been a real knife attack, the coroner would have found defensive wounds, indicating the guy fought to the bitter end. Nevertheless his defenses were ineffectual, his coordination having gone out the window. BTW, these defenses use gross motor movements; they don't rely on fine motor control. Still, he couldn't make it work.

Subsequent people that night did better, even if they were typically at a lower skill level. By that time, they knew what this thing was and what it would or wouldn't do to them. They didn't have the same fear of injury or the unknown that the first guy had.

Repeated drills with this equipment made them better, rising to the same level of proficiency as with the rubber knife covered in lipstick. I do think they are potentially better off now if attacked with a live blade, but at least some would probably not perform as effectively, as this would be a new level of peril, with more dire consequences.

Drilling under stress expends people's envelope. However, I've had quite a few other experiences that make me realize, to Climber's point, that a lot of the time we don't really know how we'd respond until the real deal happens.
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Old 10-01-2020, 06:38 AM   #308
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Here’s an example of what training does you (fly the aircraft!):

Marine C-130 and F-35 collide, 35 pilot ejects, 130 crew gets the unflyable 130 on the ground.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-with-an-f-35b

Audio of the first minute after the midair:
https://forums.liveatc.net/index.php...0;attach=10767
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Old 10-01-2020, 08:16 AM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzrider View Post
I'm a believer in simulating stress in training and do think it makes a difference. In training self defense scenarios, we have quite a few knife attack defenses, which in a sense is a fool's errand, but they can increase one's chance of survival at least.

A lot of people will become proficient with the defenses, being able to execute violently and efficiently from "total" surprise in a class setting. I place "total" in quotes because the student knows they're going to be attacked at some point, they just don't know when. They also know it'll be a rubber knife.

Sometimes the students are wearing white t-shirts and the rubber knives are coated with red lipstick so you can see if they got "cut." We wear them out, have them fight other people and then randomly rush in with a knife attack. Maybe the lights are down and music is blasting to create disorientation. The student responds like Jason Bourne, countering the attack and disarming the attacker, without ever being touched by the blade themselves.

One evening, unbeknownst to the class, I brought a shock knife. This was a plastic knife with electrodes around the edge. It crackled and sparked and would give you a shock that's about 1/6th of a taser shot. It felt convincingly like you were getting cut.

The most proficient student in class had just disarmed an attacker, when I yelled his name and came after him with the shock knife, sparks, crackling and all. His lost his shit and went home after class smelling like burnt hair.

Had it been a real knife attack, the coroner would have found defensive wounds, indicating the guy fought to the bitter end. Nevertheless his defenses were ineffectual, his coordination having gone out the window. BTW, these defenses use gross motor movements; they don't rely on fine motor control. Still, he couldn't make it work.

Subsequent people that night did better, even if they were typically at a lower skill level. By that time, they knew what this thing was and what it would or wouldn't do to them. They didn't have the same fear of injury or the unknown that the first guy had.

Repeated drills with this equipment made them better, rising to the same level of proficiency as with the rubber knife covered in lipstick. I do think they are potentially better off now if attacked with a live blade, but at least some would probably not perform as effectively, as this would be a new level of peril, with more dire consequences.

Drilling under stress expends people's envelope. However, I've had quite a few other experiences that make me realize, to Climber's point, that a lot of the time we don't really know how we'd respond until the real deal happens.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:46 PM   #310
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Here’s an example of what training does you (fly the aircraft!):

Marine C-130 and F-35 collide, 35 pilot ejects, 130 crew gets the unflyable 130 on the ground.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-with-an-f-35b

Audio of the first minute after the midair:
https://forums.liveatc.net/index.php...0;attach=10767
Good stuff T!
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:46 PM   #311
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Mikey can confirm, but every accident report I've read has evidence(s) the pilot(s) continued to fly the aircraft / solve problems (or attempt to) right to the moment of impact. Only Cirrus pilots panic and pull the chute. A simulator is to drill process which should lessen fear. Then again, I don't know many (if any) pilots that are afraid if dying when commanding their aircraft.

Fun fact: the Crash Analysis Forum idea came from AOPA's accident report column in their member magazine. The accident analysis of aircraft accidents is excellent as a learning tool.
Fly it in, don't crash it in. And I've got a few hundred hours in Cirrus. They're pretty okay to fly. Really noisy inside, and a lot of vibration gets transferred into the cabin. They became big because of the chute.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:55 PM   #312
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You can get into a pretty big debate about the Cirrus chute. I look at as another safety tool. There are parameters to using it and it's not a get out of jail card. You must have flown so ratty old Cirrus. We are a Cirrus service center and I disagree about the noisy vibration statement.
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Old 10-01-2020, 12:55 PM   #313
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What is the output of Human Factors? Does it weed out people who might not be able to perform under pressure or does it provide a way to condition people do be able to cope?

The tough thing about any simulation is being able to genuinely recreate the emotions and adrenaline dump associated with being truly afraid you're going to die.
Human Factors isn't something they do to people, it's something they study about people and change training and methodology to better suit the results of the study.

The weeding out usually happens at the private pilot level of training believe it or not. That training can be pretty stressful. If it doesn't happen then, you've got another 1500 hours of experience to gain and weed out those kinds of guys here in the US for the resignation mentality to manifest itself.

We have PRIA paperwork that follows us our entire career, that shows training failures, checkride failures, etc., that employers are required to check before they hire you.

If you've made it to the level of sitting shotgun in an airline, you've mostly proven you won't give up when the shit hits the fan. Whether you'll make the right decision or not is why they put two guys up front....something to consider when they start talking about single pilot airliners in the future, or worse, fully automated airplanes. There's two of us up front not because the airplane is so complex. The flying part is stupid simple. It's to cross check each other to prevent errors. One error you'll probably get away with unscathed. A series of errors is what leads us to an accident.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:34 PM   #314
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Great stuff Mikey!
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Old 10-01-2020, 05:22 PM   #315
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You can get into a pretty big debate about the Cirrus chute. I look at as another safety tool. There are parameters to using it and it's not a get out of jail card. You must have flown so ratty old Cirrus. We are a Cirrus service center and I disagree about the noisy vibration statement.
I flew everything from ratty old Cirrus to going out to Duluth to pick up a brand spanking new SR22T. I was a CSIP. I also managed a 3 SR22T's for a group of orthopedic surgeons for about a year. They flew all over the West. Crossing the Rockies in the dark, the chute was a very welcome addition. Thankfully I only had to do that a handful of times.

The carbon tub just seems to transfer a lot more noise and vibration than most of the other nice piston singles I've flown, and the seats are really thin. Plus, if you kneel into the seat, it crushes the material designed to help you back when it lands under the chute. I'd love to own me either an A36 or an M35 or newer V-tail. Some of the most comfortable SE pistons I've ever been in.

I think the chute is a great thing BTW. Cirrus motto was (I've been away from the SE game for a while) pull early and pull often. Chances are, on an off airport landing, the insurance company is going to be buying the airplane either way. The chute isn't a guarantee, but it's a safer option more times than it isn't.
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