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Old 03-12-2019, 10:06 AM   #31
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Other than the USA, it seems everyone else is now grounding the 737MAX8 aircraft.

Maybe this was trying to milk the cow once too many times (basic 737 design)? Plenty of aircraft have been stretched or modified in many different ways but was the 737 MAX a bridge too far?

The competition between Airbus and Boeing is fierce as are pressures to increase passenger loads while reducing fuel consumption at the same time. Then add in software trying to overcome mechanical design limitations and sooner or later something has to give, often the passengers giving with their lives.

"However, pilots reportedly weren't even aware that the MCAS system existed prior to the Lion Air crash, and hadn't been trained on it, according to the Seattle Times. "We do not like the fact that a new system was put on the aircraft and wasn't disclosed to anyone or put in the manuals," said Southwest Airlines Pilots Association president Jon Weaks."

Sounds like something Microsoft or Apple would do. https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/12/...pdate-737-max/

Maybe someone here who is in-tune with the industry can chime in on the above?

Anyone have tickets on the 737MAX8 in the near future? I know I asked a similar question before but it seems concerns are mounting and now other than in the USA you can't fly on one anyway.

As posted below, Boeing is releasing a software update in April. Who will the Beta testers be?

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Old 03-12-2019, 02:06 PM   #32
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Most crashes are not the result of one thing wrong, statistically it's the third wrong thing that gets you.
In this case, I'm going with basic design flaw on an aircraft system, poor maintenance, and poor crew response.

This is not the first time something like this has happened
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boei..._rudder_issues
Yup, it's usually always a series of problems and warning signs. I think I've watched most of these shows, Why Planes Crash. It's a very interesting show, IMO.
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:21 PM   #33
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What seems to not have been explicitly published here is that China has actually put in their statement of why they're grounding the 737 Max : "[because pilots seem to be unable or unwilling to handle the newest control issues with that plane].

IOW, it seems to me they're not exactly saying "This jet has a huge problem" but pointing that there are issues with the usage of it-- which could be Boeing's, China's/Airline's, Pilot's problem...
..... ^^^ which BTW covers two of the reasons from planegray's post (flaw, response)

Either way is probably a good call to ground.
(You could say that's why Tesla's Autopilots should be banned, to draw a parallel. hehe. )
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:42 PM   #34
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It's not just China, EU banned it too. It's also banned in Australia

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Old 03-12-2019, 02:52 PM   #35
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Old 03-12-2019, 03:04 PM   #36
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:16 PM   #37
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Boeing, Boeing, sold at $5.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:19 PM   #38
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Are you saying "US pilots have Max 8 incidents all the time but they avoid them"??? Crazy..

Basically I'm hoping you're not saying that..
From what I've read (on the all-true internets) other pilots before the Lion Air crash had reported the stall recovery being triggered incorrectly but were able to override the MCAS in time.

Unfortunately, the pilots on the Lion Air jet either did not know how to, or were unable to override the system.

If there is a systematic fault with the AOA system that relies on overriding the automated system, that is a huge issue.

I think the bigger problem internationally is that Boeing seems to be very reluctant to share details of their systems and potential problems.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:57 PM   #39
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Tori Campbell deserved a better exit to a long career than that. I feel bad for her every time "these guys" come up.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:31 AM   #40
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Most crashes are not the result of one thing wrong
Where have I heard that before? Oh yes, the MSF course.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:32 AM   #41
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Then one would think that the same stats would have extended to the entire four generations, which they did not.
It's not that simple. Reread my post. The problem is so many things were changed on the new 737 that it should have required a completely separate type rating (required to fly anything without props or over a certain weight regardless if it has props or not) The difference between the first gen 737 vs this one, the only thing similar is the looks. The training required for some if the advances made is being missed, "because it's still a 737." Yes and no.

Foreign training teaches automation management, for the most part. Their ground school is focused around that. They don't teach a whole lot in the way of systems knowledge, which is critical with a more advanced jet like this. You need to understand why it's doing what it's doing in order to make it stop doing it.

Think of it like the difference between a first and second gen SV650. They are very similar, but they are just different enough that they aren't the same.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:11 AM   #42
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Tori Campbell deserved a better exit to a long career than that. I feel bad for her every time "these guys" come up.
Agreed... greatest news blooper of all time, but hard to fault her.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:33 AM   #43
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Agreed... greatest news blooper of all time, but hard to fault her.
I had to look it up. Agreed. Even though hers was the 'mouth' that said the words, she would have been 'fed' the words to speak.

The little people always take the fall for the real people responsible. It's extremely rare for the people truly responsible for bad things to actually get held accountable, there are always fall guys/gals who get sacrificed instead.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:35 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by AbsolutEnduser View Post
What seems to not have been explicitly published here is that China has actually put in their statement of why they're grounding the 737 Max : "[because pilots seem to be unable or unwilling to handle the newest control issues with that plane].

IOW, it seems to me they're not exactly saying "This jet has a huge problem" but pointing that there are issues with the usage of it-- which could be Boeing's, China's/Airline's, Pilot's problem...
..... ^^^ which BTW covers two of the reasons from planegray's post (flaw, response)

Either way is probably a good call to ground.
(You could say that's why Tesla's Autopilots should be banned, to draw a parallel. hehe. )
That would be the definition of a dangerous plane. Pilots don't want to fly it. The Blackbird comes to mind.


Norwegian Air has suspended all Max 8 flights and says it will be charging Boeing around $1 million a day for the cost to them. They also have over 100 on order, that's being examined.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:55 AM   #45
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That would be the definition of a dangerous plane. Pilots don't want to fly it. The Blackbird comes to mind.


Norwegian Air has suspended all Max 8 flights and says it will be charging Boeing around $1 million a day for the cost to them. They also have over 100 on order, that's being examined.
Surprised Boeing stock hasn't dropped more than it already has.

That's a big problem.
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