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Old 03-13-2019, 11:40 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by afm199 View Post
If I ran a large airline, and had pilots (cops) who had more tendency to shoot themselves in the foot, I'd simply buy a Beretta or other weapon with an external safety, thus eliminating the problem, which could also be solved by proper training, but is real.
And that's the crux of the issue here. They don't have training that is designed to handle these kinds of things. Airplanes sometimes do dumb shit. I've had a stick pusher go off with no warning, for no apparent reason. 80lbs of force trying to rip the controls out of your hands, to prevent a stall, very similar to what happened here. Hold on tight, push the right buttons to momentarily interrupt it, and run the QRH to turn it off. You'll lose stall protection at that point, but that's a minor issue compared to having the stick pusher try and nose the thing over.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:42 AM   #62
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I agree with you. See my Glock analogy. If cops keep shooting themselves in the leg, it's cheaper to buy a Beretta.
Except in this case, the Beretta is still missing the safety. The airplane I fly now (I refuse to fly the 737, it's cockpit sucks), has the same system, called by a different name.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:52 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by msethhunter View Post
Except in this case, the Beretta is still missing the safety. The airplane I fly now (I refuse to fly the 737, it's cockpit sucks), has the same system, called by a different name.
No, the Beretta might be an Airbus. If you have a Glock, it's a Glock.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:54 AM   #64
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Nope, that's not what I said. But please, tell me about your flying experience...

Nice to see that your animosity from the PS carries over to every other part of this place.
My flying experience doesn't matter, because I didn't say I have any. I am only getting information, so your claim about 'the PS', is BS. Nice to see you have some animosity, since I don't recall talking that much with you. But in reality afm199 is saying a similar thing to me "it doesn't matter", but you choose to respond in BS flying way to me.

Let me explain the Pilots post, which I posted a bit too quickly.
It has been said, that this plane 'doesn't need training' by Boeing, already long ago, two years ago, and in the last days' articles.

Yet you however have above said in a post "the thing is, it does need training" , but in other posts say "because [we/other pilots] are more capable, we can fly it no problem".

You cannot see the forest for the trees: just because you claim you can fly "the damn jet" even in the face of a software "error"(*), doesn't mean it's safe for everyone exactly because it was claimed, that there's no training needed.

That's what "weird" part meant: directed towards Boeing--there is a discrepancy between what Boeing had previously said about that model, and, reality?

Should have been grounded after Lion' Air... or even retrained before..

* - .. 2 "errors" of an otherwise operational jet (???? )
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:51 PM   #65
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Thanks for your input Mikey. Can we be nice guys? People are dead, no one wanted that. If it turns out Boing Management was negligent with a defect, they should be punished. If it turns the crashes were the result of a series of failures that no one could predict or train for, fix it. Honor the loss of life by making things safer. Be it by engineering better systems or training pilots in a more effective way. Risk in live will never be zero. But we should keep working to make it as close to that as possible.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:01 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by afm199 View Post
No, the Beretta might be an Airbus. If you have a Glock, it's a Glock.
Because Airbus jets have never flown into the tree line trying to take off?

The Glock vs Beretta analogy fails because the Glock has a safety feature.

The Glock like most handguns has two safety features, the one the manufacturer designed in and the one between the ears of the operator. The safety feature built into the person can always defeat the best safety feature designed into a gun.

The comparison to jets also doesn't work. The handgun can be left in the holster and it will not do anything on it's own. The handgun, even taken out and held will do nothing. It can't do anything until the person does something. The jet, once it engines are started will can do things all by itself without the flight crew doing anything. It can spontaneously catch fire, it can explode, it can refuse to accept inputs etc', or; it can do what it's supposed to to and everyone gets to point B just fine.

Maybe we've lost a generation of pilots somewhere and instead reaped the rewards of purchased entrances to schools and the idea that an app can do anything. Someone in another thread said Hipsters don't code. Given the recent events, can we really say that is true?
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:07 PM   #67
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trump just grounded all 737 max

i wonder why trump would do this and not some top faa personnel

also this thread should help give support to the other one in general

whats more dangerous airplanes or motos?

I responded statistically we have found every moto/rider remains, where airplanes have literally disappeared, how can they say airplanes are safer then motos when you got missing bodies/planes is mesmerizing.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by FXCLM5 View Post
trump just grounded all 737 max

i wonder why trump would do this and not some top faa personnel

also this thread should help give support to the other one in general

whats more dangerous airplanes or motos?

I responded statistically we have found every moto/rider remains, where airplanes have literally disappeared, how can they say airplanes are safer then motos when you got missing bodies/planes is mesmerizing.
I'm sure there are motorcycles/motorcyclists who have crashed in remote areas and never been found
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:21 PM   #69
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There is a big but here.
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:03 PM   #70
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A first in aviation history. A whole fleet of aircraft grounded due to media frenzy.
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:07 PM   #71
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A first in aviation history. A whole fleet of aircraft grounded due to an average fatality rate of 1 per 137 flights..
Fixed that for you.
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:16 PM   #72
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A first in aviation history. A whole fleet of aircraft grounded due to media frenzy.
A sign of the times.

If it turns out that in both crashes it was pilot error, then what? The finger pointing to just who is going to absorb the financial losses will be furious. Does social/news media become the new decider of how these things are handled?
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:37 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Schnellbandit View Post
A sign of the times.

If it turns out that in both crashes it was pilot error, then what? The finger pointing to just who is going to absorb the financial losses will be furious. Does social/news media become the new decider of how these things are handled?
Well the media didn't ground the planes nor were the media flying them so pinning it on the media is not likely to stand up in court.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:21 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by msethhunter View Post

With that said, sometimes you just have to turn it all off and fly the damn jet. The most basic modes (stick and rudder) will provide the quickest way out. There's a reason that when we do escape maneuvers (windshear/wake turbulence/EGPWS), WE take control, and turn it all off. There's been more than a few times where I've had to do exactly that. "Why's it doing that?" *click click....click click*" and you fly the damn jet. "Sorry Betty, I don't know why you're doing that, and I don't like it, so I'm going to do it instead." Has automation improved safety? I don't think you can make an argument that it hasn't. The flip side of that coin is what to do when the automation isn't doing what you expected it to.

A lot of different aircraft, especially those with wing mounted engines have some sort of thrust compensation built into their software. This isn't new technology, but it is something different that hasn't been on previous generations of 737, and the rote memorization isn't going to transfer well on something like that.

Turn the shit off, and fly the damn jet.
I want you as my pilot Mikey. "Fly the damn airplane". The above is what defines you as a legit stickman....great post. Legit.

I talked to my good friend who's high up in one of the majors (you know who, I think) and his perspective was enlightening. I asked "can't they just turn the system off for each flight"...to which he said "yeah, but it's too late now". HIs thought was what the industry was speculating: faulty sensor or software with the sensor where the aircraft is giving away climb rate due to an AOA issue, etc. I suspect Boeing knows something about it.

Question: was this system designed for less experienced pilots as a safety measure in itself?

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trump just grounded all 737 max

i wonder why trump would do this and not some top faa personnel
Because the FAA is notoriously slow and toothless when it counts.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:24 PM   #75
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A first in aviation history. A whole fleet of aircraft grounded due to media frenzy.
I thought it was grounded due to 2 planes crashing and killing all on board?

What other brand new model aircraft has this happened with?
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