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Old 12-08-2014, 01:11 PM   #151
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Well, that's probably who's behind this bill. After their guidelines got taken down they took a different route.
Doubtful.

Again, if that was the case wouldn't have seen an increase in tickets for lane sharing outside of those guidelines once they were issued?
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:12 PM   #152
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By whom?

I'll repeat that the CHP has always been one of the strongest proponents to lane-sharing.
That is a fact and good to point out. I don't know how autonomous CHP Officers are but maintaining a lawful low profile is to a riders' benefit. The fewer reasons we give the public to target us, the better. But I suppose it's a bit paranoid and not really fit for this discussion.

Should I delete?
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:17 PM   #153
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That is a fact and good to point out. I don't know how autonomous CHP Officers are but maintaining a lawful low profile is to a riders' benefit. The fewer reasons we give the public to target us, the better. But I suppose it's a bit paranoid and not really fit for this discussion.

Should I delete?
Don't delete, it is part of the discussion.

My main point is, that we should not be requesting restrictions until we are faced with an issue.

We just squashed a real anti lane sharing bill, so why now accept a laws restricting it? It is not an either or situation.

If getting ticketed for lane-sharing in a safe and prudent manner becomes a widespread issue THEN we embrace hard codified laws on the practice.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:17 PM   #154
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A question for those against this bill. First an analogy: Originally there were no speed limits. As motor vehicles grew in popularity, got faster and more roads were built, the system evolved to limit speeds. Hereís the question: Are we better off with speed limit laws, or would it be better for speeds to be governed by the brains and experience of the operators?

Iíd bet there were plenty against the introduction of speed laws, but even though they've existed for 100 yrs. vehicles have only gotten faster (and safer). I donít follow the logic that a law making it illegal to infringe on a motorcyclistís right to lane split will lead to no lane splitting.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:19 PM   #155
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Doubtful.

Again, if that was the case wouldn't have seen an increase in tickets for lane sharing outside of those guidelines once they were issued?
No, there still is no CVC citation that applies, that's kind of the point, guidelines are not enforceable, codes are. As far as I know, and with the latest guidelines being removed, these are the current guidelines:

California Department of Motor Vehicles:
"Motorcycles may travel faster than traffic during congested road conditions and can travel in the unused space between two lines of moving or stationary vehicles, which is commonly called “lane splitting.”

California Highway Patrol:
"Lane splitting is permissible if done in a safe and prudent manner."
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:22 PM   #156
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A question for those against this bill. First an analogy: Originally there were no speed limits. As motor vehicles grew in popularity, got faster and more roads were built, the system evolved to limit speeds. Hereís the question: Are we better off with speed limit laws, or would it be better for speeds to be governed by the brains and experience of the operators?

Iíd bet there were plenty against the introduction of speed laws, but even though they've existed for 100 yrs. vehicles have only gotten faster (and safer). I donít follow the logic that a law making it illegal to infringe on a motorcyclistís right to lane split will lead to no lane splitting.
What problem would we be solving?

You can already be ticketed if you are being a fucking knob.

I can tell you these laws won't solve the public perception problem, in fact I only see it making it MORE hated. Just my though.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:28 PM   #157
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No, there still is no CVC citation that applies, that's kind of the point, guidelines are not enforceable, codes are. As far as I know, and with the latest guidelines being removed, these are the current guidelines:

California Department of Motor Vehicles:
"Motorcycles may travel faster than traffic during congested road conditions and can travel in the unused space between two lines of moving or stationary vehicles, which is commonly called ďlane splitting.Ē

California Highway Patrol:
"Lane splitting is permissible if done in a safe and prudent manner."
Too fast for conditions? Unsafe lane changes? in your first bit it says during congested road conditions. There has to be a way to say, it wasn't congested.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:32 PM   #158
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What problem would we be solving?

You can already be ticketed if you are being a fucking knob.

I can tell you these laws won't solve the public perception problem, in fact I only see it making it MORE hated. Just my though.
I lane split. My main problem, hence the one important to me, is that I don't know and have no control over what the drivers around me will do. I trust me, I don't trust them. If a law made it less legal (more obviously illegal) for car drivers to carelessly get in my space, and if that law was easier to enforce (less gray), I'd be for it. I'd also hope it would be enforced.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:40 PM   #159
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I lane split. My main problem, hence the one important to me, is that I don't know and have no control over what the drivers around me will do. I trust me, I don't trust them. If a law made it less legal (more obviously illegal) for car drivers to carelessly get in my space, and if that law was easier to enforce (less gray), I'd be for it. I'd also hope it would be enforced.
This law will not make you any safer, as it will not make drivers pay any more attention than they do currently.

If a driver commits an unsafe lane change as it is then they should be charged, especially when they cause an accident. I am not saying they actually are, nor do I believe this law will change that.

When you lane share YOU must accept the risk and ride accordingly. I am sorry but a nanny law will not change that.

Have you ever tried finding a fellow motorcyclist in the your rearview mirror at night? It can be damn hard to spot. Now try in the rain.

Just because you are within those guidelines does not mean you won't die.

The two arguments I have seen so far is for the safety of the rider/accountability of the car. Neither of which prove true to me.

The other argument being that this will somehow prevent it from becoming illegal. To which I saw we just squashed a law proposing just that.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:50 PM   #160
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This law will not make you any safer, as it will not make drivers pay any more attention than they do currently.
Sorry to disagree. If a law making it more clearly illegal to encroach on my space is enforced, eventually those getting ticketed learn the law - just like speeding tickets became acceptable to those speeding (annoying but accepted). Insurance payouts would probably accelerate the evolution.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:51 PM   #161
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Holy shit. Talk about a road (lane) to hell paved with good intentions.

I'm very impressed Bud and the other BARFers who participated in the OTS group have had so much positive impact on the State's safety community...however, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Please STFU about lane splitting. Here's what I think happened, please correct me if I'm wrong:
Let me set the record straight... a very powerful DMV member of our committee came to our committee proposing to ban lane sharing. A few members in our committee who were strongly in favor of lane sharing nominated me to go face to face with him because I was the only one that would not lose their job by facing him up.

With some back up I indeed made a special trip to SAC to face him up.

I did call him to the carpet on that and redirected the proposal to be an awareness program to make sure that CA drivers knew it was a legal practice.
Red faced and throwing a little spit he finally as demanded who would write the proposal..."YOU???!!!!!"

(This is why Silversvs did this thread: http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/fo...d.php?t=352716)

I said yes, but had no idea what the hell to do as I was still in my first year on this committee and "How stuff got done by Government protocols" was pretty foreign to me. I tried like hell, but kept failing on the part about the $$$. A good man and friend of motorcycling on the committee picked it up and finished the proposal.

As the proposal made its way to what is called the Steering Committee _ the final step before implementation is made it was returned to add some education towards riders as well. The Lane Sharing Summit that Silversvs put together and which include a dozen barfers took on the Guidelines. Seasoned motorcyclists, LEOs, Insurance folks and other came up with those and they went back to the steering committee. I never agreed to a speed limit proposal because I knew I could share at 65 safely, but I caved because it was explicitly stated that the Guidelines were for the General public and not geared towards expert riders. ** Fack me**

We did add a section geared towards motorists as well.

So Gabe and all...

STFU would have let the non riding members of the committee get the ball rolling to BAN lanesharing or as it was preferred to be called by the higher ups lanesplitting.

Believe me... I was scared that my less than a 1 year run on this committee was over, but sitting and being quiet had HUGE implications for how I ride and how most of us do.

I still believe 100% it was the right thing to do.... and yes I knew eventually some law would come out of it because that is what happens in modern society.

So NOW WE NEED TO NOT STFU and let our voices being heard and be strong, respectful and refined.

We need to work the system. Not Riot and tear shit up..
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:59 PM   #162
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Sorry to disagree. If a law making it more clearly illegal to encroach on my space is enforced, eventually those getting ticketed learn the law - just like speeding tickets became acceptable to those speeding (annoying but accepted). Insurance payouts would probably accelerate the evolution.
It already IS 100% illegal for them to encroach on your space without warning.

Should we request a law that makes explicitly illegal for a car to turn left in front of an oncoming motorcycle (specifically a motorcycle)?
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:12 PM   #163
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Should we request a law that makes explicitly illegal for a car to turn left in front of an oncoming motorcycle (specifically a motorcycle)?
Yes please.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:33 PM   #164
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If a driver commits an unsafe lane change as it is then they should be charged, especially when they cause an accident. I am not saying they actually are, nor do I believe this law will change that.
The problem is that there is a heavy gray area in the following:
Quote:
"Motorcycles may travel faster than traffic during congested road conditions and can travel in the unused space between two lines of moving or stationary vehicles, which is commonly called “lane splitting.”

"Lane splitting is permissible if done in a safe and prudent manner."
None of these guidelines actually provide any legal protection in case of an accident. It is up to the judgment of the police officer, the insurance company, and the individuals as to if lane splitting was done in a "safe and prudent" manner. By making lane splitting explicitly legal with under well reasoned restrictions, we can enjoy the same legal protection as people who drive at the speed limit when it comes to determining fault in an accident. This legitimizes our place on the roads and between the lanes, and gives us a legal baseline for something we do every day. It means that if someone cuts you off and you're within the guidelines, you will have the same legal standing as if you had been in normal lane position and someone merged into you. No more "well, you were splitting and got in an accident so because there's a lot of gray area on when and where splitting is legal, you're at fault because if you weren't splitting it wouldn't have been a problem".

Quote:
So NOW WE NEED TO NOT STFU and let our voices being heard and be strong, respectful and refined.

We need to work the system. Not Riot and tear shit up..
Being strong, respect, and refined is calling for reasonable restrictions on lane splitting understanding that it is justified by the facts of the situation and the research on safety, not throwing a fit because someone dared even talk about our sacred cow. Thank you for all of the work you have done preventing lane splitting getting banned - that is greatly appreciated. But this is not a case where splitting is going to get banned, and that justifies a different response.

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Old 12-08-2014, 02:44 PM   #165
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Don't delete, it is part of the discussion.

My main point is, that we should not be requesting restrictions until we are faced with an issue.

We just squashed a real anti lane sharing bill, so why now accept a laws restricting it? It is not an either or situation.

If getting ticketed for lane-sharing in a safe and prudent manner becomes a widespread issue THEN we embrace hard codified laws on the practice.
I agree. Before there are any new laws or changes to existing ones the prudent thing to do is wait and see if or when enforcement of existing laws is used to control or curtail lane sharing.

Squash everything until there is proof some kind of change is needed.
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