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Old 01-21-2019, 02:09 PM   #61
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Robert is saying "brake less" meaning "Brake lighter, longer", if I'm reading him correctly. Don't move brake markers. Simply brake at the same point and work on carrying more entry speed to the apex focusing on lever feel and slowing the bike for your actual turn phase. What'll happen is you'll garner an understanding of how to use the brakes to take you TO the apex and the throttle to take you OFF the apex.

One thing Keith Code used in his books that stuck with me was the idea of using the brakes as a reverse throttle.
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Old 01-21-2019, 02:54 PM   #62
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Yeah one goal is to brake for less time overall. I am achieving that by using more force during the shortened braking interval.
don't do that. +1 to Berto and see more below.

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My overall intent historically has been to ‘go fast’ and nothing feels faster than pushing entries. A fundamental shift in how I approach riding is that it shouldn’t feel fast anymore. If it does then I’m going to reassess why and if it’s because of pushing entries, I’m going to slow more for that corner. Hopefully I’m not too far off base, please correct me if I have the wrong idea...
thats the problem. pushing entries gives the greatest feeling of speed, meaning its HARD. but what some don't realize is that it likely provides the smallest benefit to your lap time, compared to working on other parts of the lap. plus, your feeling of "fast" is wrong because u arent near lap records and your apex speeds are down. so u shouldn't use that to determine anything for braking. I think this is a bad way to teach yourself to go faster.

in my personal experience racing and with helping friends, ive found that its near impossible to learn more than 1 thing at a time. u cant brake deeper AND carry more apex speed AND throttle sooner right now, all in the same corner. so do 1 at a time and do them in order based on a cost-benefit ratio. do u think that braking harder is going to give u the most lap time reduction for the least amount of effort? I don't.
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Old 01-21-2019, 03:48 PM   #63
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careful with pushing markers. thats often a good way to go slower. at this point in your racing, u probably have a lot more time to be gained by braking less, not more. this is especially true around tracks where there are no real straights and the braking zones arent long, like Sonoma.

off-topic, sry.

I have a question pertaining to markers. Are they really used ALL THE TIME?

And maybe because I am new to track days, and have seemed to get a few seconds faster each day! Probably pretty normal for learning a track I would imagine.

But I tried to get me some markers and with in a few sessions im already needing new ones as I have progressed in braking/better apex/where I let off brakes and apply gas. etc.

Do you get to a point in riding where markers are not used? or maybe get to a point of speed where they ARE used? Like run a track for a few weekends and get it memorized than start marking?

If you went to a new track what would your protocol be for marking? and after a year of riding that track are you still using marking or is it just memorized?
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:58 PM   #64
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yes, u will always use some form of marker. even if the have the track memorized, u still need something to look at to tell where exactly u are on track. thats a marker. it could be a #'d board in a braking zone, some part of an inside curb that u hit, or even just a seam in the asphalt. its all markers that define where u want to do something on track.

its not uncommon to move markers a lot as u gain lots of time. when I go to a new track, I move a marker every time I learn something that allows me to go faster. thats prob every lap for every corner my first session. then as things get more difficult, I fix ones im happy with and work on the ones I know are bad. if ive been to a track a lot, I know what works and what doesnt so I move markers less. but they do get moved if im actually working to go faster. and occasionally I move them back if my experiment didnt work.
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Old 01-21-2019, 06:23 PM   #65
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..... use the brakes to take you TO the apex and the throttle to take you OFF the apex.
That sentence was an epiphany, thank you.

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Old 01-21-2019, 06:43 PM   #66
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Robert is saying "brake less" meaning "Brake lighter, longer", if I'm reading him correctly. Don't move brake markers. Simply brake at the same point and work on carrying more entry speed to the apex focusing on lever feel and slowing the bike for your actual turn phase. What'll happen is you'll garner an understanding of how to use the brakes to take you TO the apex and the throttle to take you OFF the apex.

One thing Keith Code used in his books that stuck with me was the idea of using the brakes as a reverse throttle.
I don’t understand... Maybe once I have a baseline without abs it will become clear, but it sounds like you’re saying to not use the full capability of the bike... perhaps I should only go 75% throttle as well???.....

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Originally Posted by stangmx13 View Post
don't do that. +1 to Berto and see more below.



thats the problem. pushing entries gives the greatest feeling of speed, meaning its HARD. but what some don't realize is that it likely provides the smallest benefit to your lap time, compared to working on other parts of the lap. plus, your feeling of "fast" is wrong because u arent near lap records and your apex speeds are down. so u shouldn't use that to determine anything for braking. I think this is a bad way to teach yourself to go faster.

in my personal experience racing and with helping friends, ive found that its near impossible to learn more than 1 thing at a time. u cant brake deeper AND carry more apex speed AND throttle sooner right now, all in the same corner. so do 1 at a time and do them in order based on a cost-benefit ratio. do u think that braking harder is going to give u the most lap time reduction for the least amount of effort? I don't.
There’s a miscommunication going on but thanks for the advice
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Old 01-21-2019, 08:46 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Holeshot View Post
Robert is saying "brake less" meaning "Brake lighter, longer", if I'm reading him correctly. Don't move brake markers. Simply brake at the same point and work on carrying more entry speed to the apex focusing on lever feel and slowing the bike for your actual turn phase. What'll happen is you'll garner an understanding of how to use the brakes to take you TO the apex and the throttle to take you OFF the apex.

One thing Keith Code used in his books that stuck with me was the idea of using the brakes as a reverse throttle.
Good advice for me! I love braking hard and late and I notice that the harder I brake the less ability I have to judge my speed when letting out the brakes and sometimes I wont have any trail braking into apex cause i used to much on entry. For some reason my speed judgement is far better when i brake lighter and carry that into apex.
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Old 01-21-2019, 09:08 PM   #68
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I have a question pertaining to markers. Are they really used ALL THE TIME?

And maybe because I am new to track days, and have seemed to get a few seconds faster each day! Probably pretty normal for learning a track I would imagine.

But I tried to get me some markers and with in a few sessions im already needing new ones as I have progressed in braking/better apex/where I let off brakes and apply gas. etc.

Do you get to a point in riding where markers are not used? or maybe get to a point of speed where they ARE used? Like run a track for a few weekends and get it memorized than start marking?

If you went to a new track what would your protocol be for marking? and after a year of riding that track are you still using marking or is it just memorized?
Reference points for me. The references need to be permanent fixed things on the track. Our brains are amazing at nearly instant spacial calculations. So even if you find you're braking too early, chances are you don't HAVE to change your reference point, you can instead just know that you can do something slightly different in reference to that point.

I don't change my points very often unless they just don't work for me anymore or i find ones that work better. Walking the track helps find new interesting reference points that you can't find at 90mph.
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Old 01-21-2019, 09:14 PM   #69
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Reference points for me. The references need to be permanent fixed things on the track. Our brains are amazing at nearly instant spacial calculations. So even if you find you're braking too early, chances are you don't HAVE to change your reference point, you can instead just know that you can do something slightly different in reference to that point.

I don't change my points very often unless they just don't work for me anymore or i find ones that work better. Walking the track helps find new interesting reference points that you can't find at 90mph.
Thank you for that!...Very helpful the way you verbalized that. Cause i have a real problem trying to update reference points and in some cases find them at 90....
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Old 01-21-2019, 10:36 PM   #70
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I don’t understand... Maybe once I have a baseline without abs it will become clear, but it sounds like you’re saying to not use the full capability of the bike... perhaps I should only go 75% throttle as well???.....
Pick a turn and describe your braking memory. Do you snatch the lever? What are you looking at when you go to the lever? How much pressure do you have on the lever and for how long? What do you do when you start to add lean angle? Where are your eyes before you start to add lean angle? Where are your eyes as you add lean angle? When do you shift you body? When do you shift your inside foot? How do you hold yourself up on the bike (from collapsing onto the tank)? Where is your pelvis? Are you sitting upright or bent over? How do you "give away lever"? How long do you hold the lever on as you add lean angle? At what point are you completely off the lever?

Given all of that, Chris, is it faster from your initial braking point to hold max braking as long as you can or brake lighter at the same point and carry more speed to the apex?
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Old 01-21-2019, 11:09 PM   #71
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Pick a turn and describe your braking memory. Do you snatch the lever? What are you looking at when you go to the lever? How much pressure do you have on the lever and for how long? What do you do when you start to add lean angle? Where are your eyes before you start to add lean angle? Where are your eyes as you add lean angle? When do you shift you body? When do you shift your inside foot? How do you hold yourself up on the bike (from collapsing onto the tank)? Where is your pelvis? Are you sitting upright or bent over? How do you "give away lever"? How long do you hold the lever on as you add lean angle? At what point are you completely off the lever?

Given all of that, Chris, is it faster from your initial braking point to hold max braking as long as you can or brake lighter at the same point and carry more speed to the apex?
Pick a turn and describe your braking memory.
Turn 11 Sonoma (the corner I crashed)

Do you snatch the lever?
I minimize the time from shutting throttle to max braking


What are you looking at when you go to the lever?
Brake marker and apex

How much pressure do you have on the lever and for how long?
I maximize pressure to minimize the time spent at max braking

What do you do when you start to add lean angle?
Subtract brake pressure

Where are your eyes before you start to add lean angle?
Apex

Where are your eyes as you add lean angle?
Apex

When do you shift you body?
Before touching brake lever

When do you shift your inside foot?
Before touching brake lever

How do you hold yourself up on the bike (from collapsing onto the tank)?
When? During max braking my arms are supporting but asap my back and legs take over to minimize weight on bars at apex

Where is your pelvis?
Toward apex

Are you sitting upright or bent over?
Upright at max braking to bent over at apex

How do you "give away lever"?
Begrudgingly

How long do you hold the lever on as you add lean angle?
Until lean angle is set and I’m pointed to apex

At what point are you completely off the lever?
Just before apex

Given all of that, Chris, is it faster from your initial braking point to hold max braking as long as you can or brake lighter at the same point and carry more speed to the apex?
Obviously the second choice but that assumes apex speed is not already maximized. Faster to brake later to hold max braking as short as possible when apex speed remaining constant between options
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Old 01-22-2019, 02:20 AM   #72
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There are only a dozen riders on the planet that can use max brake pressure and maintain max apex speed. Since none of us are one of those riders, we must compromise. Thankfully, the lap timer doesn’t lie.
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Old 01-22-2019, 07:41 AM   #73
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There are only a dozen riders on the planet that can use max brake pressure and maintain max apex speed. Since none of us are one of those riders, we must compromise. Thankfully, the lap timer doesn’t lie.

Speaking of lap timers. Is there a preferred one on the market?

Im not so concerned with what my actual times are but I would like to monitor my consistency...

T-Hill, but ill probably ride at Sonoma and Seca this year....
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Old 01-22-2019, 07:52 AM   #74
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There are only a dozen riders on the planet that can use max brake pressure and maintain max apex speed. Since none of us are one of those riders, we must compromise. Thankfully, the lap timer doesn’t lie.
My apex speed for turn 11 is 32mph running 1:48.2 on my first weekend there. Are you saying that should be faster?
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:00 AM   #75
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For comparison, MotoAmerica stock 1000 1:40.3 apex speed was 34mph
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