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Old 05-15-2006, 01:03 PM   #16
Kensaku
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+1

While I do agree that track skills improve my overall control of a motorcycle, the track isn't going to train me on things not found on the track, half of which has nothing to do with control...just bad luck.

There's one AFM racer who will remain anoynmous who thinks he's an "expert" street rider because of his AFM status. What does he do this past week? Goes and crashes on the street...
I kind of retract this statement. What track riding has taught me is to give myself a large margin of error to avoid "bad luck" situations. Whenever I have a mishap, big or small, I try to evaluate my riding before pointing fingers at forces of nature.
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:04 PM   #17
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Street VS Track?

You train your eyes and ears to listen and look for completely different shit.
I think the tie is closer than that... It's not that you train your eyes and ears to see and listen for different "shit" I think you train your mind and reflexes to react to "shit" in general.

I would argue that the single biggest factor aside from inappropriate speed, leading to crashes on motorcycles is not doing "something" the instant things start to go south.

In a word... hesitation, or its direct counterpart, "overreaction" I think that the track provides a consistent "workout" area where reaction time is lessened, and overreaction is turned into subtlety at the controls because the track is an environment where you can "isolate" themental practice, like some weird nautilus machine for your mind.

You hit a corner over and over and over again, so that you understand what subtle speed changes, steering inputs lean angles etc etc, do to your path of travel and where you end up on the track... On the street, so much "stuff" is going on that it becomes a morass of data so that when you exit the turn you think "Ok, I made it, what the hell just happened?"

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Old 05-15-2006, 01:14 PM   #18
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Good shit,

I know one person (no Name) that is always asking me when I will hit the track with? I tell him probably never. His response has been somewhere along the lines of -what, don't think you could handle it?
Yah thats it.
And when asked when will i see him on the street he replys.
I will meet you at skaggs. When I ask? Sometime soon he say's I'll load up my bike and see you there.

Dumbass.
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:21 PM   #19
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Good shit,

I know one person (no Name) that is always asking me when I will hit the track with? I tell him probably never. His response has been somewhere along the lines of -what, don't think you could handle it?
Yah thats it.
And when asked when will i see him on the street he replys.
I will meet you at skaggs. When I ask? Sometime soon he say's I'll load up my bike and see you there.

Dumbass.


As much skill is shared, there is also the proprietary information that is most useful to one discipline or the other... It's probably up to the individual in question how they choose to apply it to either and what parts of it they choose to ignore

I still remember that man in the issue of BIKE magazine who rides fast on the street and has been doing so for 52 years, and has never crashed, not even once.

I'll bet HE has quite a bit proprietary information in his head about street riding (and this is in England, where riding a motorcycle in that weather means you're hardcore to begin with )

If you enleashed that gentleman on the track, perhaps he would be clueless as to how to proceed, but then again, he doesn't need to know anything about it either...

My goal is to gather every bit of information I can to stay upright... Wether that comes from the street or track I don't really care, I'll listen eagerly!

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Old 05-15-2006, 01:29 PM   #20
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I agree. To each's own.
I have crashed many times and have learned some alot of what not to do's from ebery one. Even though they are not always you falt. Most can still be avoided.

OUT

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Old 05-15-2006, 01:31 PM   #21
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Sorry about the spelling.
In a hurry.
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:33 PM   #22
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I think that track time in most cases has a positive impact in a riders safety on the street and will generally help to develop skills and awareness that will go a long way towards ensuring that they will come home every day on two wheels.

But, there are also skills developed on the street that aren't learned on the track and have to do with the factors that don't exist on the track. It's these skills that when combined with the skills developed on the track will make riders complete and safe street riders.
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:34 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Kensaku
+1

While I do agree that track skills improve my overall control of a motorcycle, the track isn't going to train me on things not found on the track, half of which has nothing to do with control...just bad luck.
Gonna have to disagree with you there. Skills learnt on the track put more into your bag of skills. So, when that 'bad luck' happens to you would you rather have more skills to call on, or less?

I'd rather go for more.

Of course, there is a caveat to my stance on this, which has been brought up by doubleottcrash... if you go to the track with the desire to learn to be a better rider then the resulting increase in control skills is what I call 'track skills'. Skills that you can still get through street riding, it will just take longer and be more dangerous to get them.

If you go to the track with the goal of just goin' as fuckin' fast as you can the whole time, with no desire to learn anything except how big your dick is (isn't) then yes, you've been to the track, but no, you haven't picked up any 'track skills'. In fact, you probably should just kick your bike over in your driveway now rather than wasting your own time and the time of the organizer.
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:36 PM   #24
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Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war. In other words, knowing the traction limits of racing slicks on ideal surfaces in ideal conditions doesn't really mean much to the real world.
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:38 PM   #25
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Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war. In other words, knowing the traction limits of racing slicks on ideal surfaces in ideal conditions doesn't really mean much to the real world.
And yet when the helicopter drops me off at the front line, I'm pretty sure I'd like to have some idea how to use my weapon.
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:43 PM   #26
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Gonna have to disagree with you there. Skills learnt on the track put more into your bag of skills. So, when that 'bad luck' happens to you would you rather have more skills to call on, or less?

I'd rather go for more.

Of course, there is a caveat to my stance on this, which has been brought up by doubleottcrash... if you go to the track with the desire to learn to be a better rider then the resulting increase in control skills is what I call 'track skills'. Skills that you can still get through street riding, it will just take longer and be more dangerous to get them.
No, I agree with you but I'm saying there are many, many variables found on the street that go beyond bike control and the track just doesn't prepare you for that kind of situation. For example, a drunk driver coming up driving 100mph down the highway and rear-ending you before you have time to react. Sure, skills learned on the track give you a better sense of how to manuveur a bike more competently to avoid such a collision, but sometimes there's nothing you can do...

(see my post after the post you quoted).
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:48 PM   #27
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My .02 cents.

All riding make the rider better in those 'Oh shit' moments. A few quick things.

Track- Controlled environment to learn the limits of your bike and what they feel like.

Street- Being able to read traffic and the road(sign of a driveway or chance of dirt from a hillside).

Dirt- How to slide a bike when it loses traction and how to crash with little injury.
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Old 05-15-2006, 02:36 PM   #28
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Spending alot of time on the track is probably like getting a significant CPU upgrade
Excellent analogy!

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Originally posted by doubleottcrash
On the track your not going to come across wet railroad tracks at 65mph while leaning.
I'm not sure what you're insinuating by this. This is just common sense for any rider, street or track.

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Originally posted by Kensaku
There's one AFM racer who will remain anoynmous who thinks he's an "expert" street rider because of his AFM status. What does he do this past week? Goes and crashes on the street...
Is he an expert AFM racer? Not that it means a whole lot, as it just signifies that he remained upright for six weekends.

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[i]
What track riding has taught me is to give myself a large margin of error to avoid "bad luck" situations. Whenever I have a mishap, big or small, I try to evaluate my riding before pointing fingers at forces of nature.
Likewise. This is exactly why some fast street riders will lose some racers at an "A" street pace on public roads. Most of the more experienced racers I know don't want to give up that margin.

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Track practice is to streetriding as gun range practice is to going to war. In other words, knowing the traction limits of racing slicks on ideal surfaces in ideal conditions doesn't really mean much to the real world.
Maybe not, but after bringing cold tires up to temperature over countless trackdays and race weekends, experienced racers will have a pretty good idea if the traction is there when they need it. Their racing experience will probably allow them to make full use of the traction that is available. And when they lose it, they'll have a better chance of regaining it than someone who doesn't have that skill.
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Old 05-15-2006, 02:44 PM   #29
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I have almost exclusively ridden on the street. Having only gone to a few track days, I am very busy with the basics when I do go. It seems odd to spend many years riding and then something as simple as changing the environment, from street to the track, would cause one to take steps back just to participate. Well, there were things I was doing wrong.

Hopefully you keep learning, but what the track did for me was a huge benefit to my skills. It forces you to participate in a focused way. After all the years I spent riding on the street, I finally learned some skills that are essential to riding anywhere. I learned these skills by going to the track.

And thanks to all that have helped me when I was out there.
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Old 05-15-2006, 03:00 PM   #30
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Maybe not, but after bringing cold tires up to temperature over countless trackdays and race weekends, experienced racers will have a pretty good idea if the traction is there when they need it.
Bringing tires up to temperature is not restricted to the track.


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Their racing experience will probably allow them to make full use of the traction that is available. And when they lose it, they'll have a better chance of regaining it than someone who doesn't have that skill.
Maybe when they break it loose due to overacceleration or braking. But you break it loose on the road for a lot more reasons than that on the street. Gravel, leaves, wet pavement, traffic stripes, oil/antifreeze/any random liquid, bad cracked up/potholed pavement, etc. Perhaps the manner of recovery is the same despite the reason for loss coming from outside the rider's inputs, but the experience to not have it happen in the first place doesn't come from the track.


There are aspects of motorcycling (mostly just limits of rider and machine) that you can learn safely on the track, sure, but those aspects can all be learned on the street. However, there are innumerable aspects of street riding that are impossible to learn on the track. I don't know how to safety wire my bike up, but I do know when to stand on the pegs so my nuts don't get smashed by that bump in the #1 lane on EB 24 at Orinda.
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