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Old 05-16-2006, 08:52 AM   #61
budbandit
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Yes, I am comparing apples with oranges - different skillsets, abilities and capabilities. Unless I am misreading Holeshot entirely, he is saying in effect that there is one set of skills applicable to riding motorcycles and that set is best honed and developed on the road racing track. While I am certain that there are some awesomely skilled guys who have mastered riding on the knife edge that stands between blisteringly fast on a predictable and consistant track and disasterous excursion beyond the edge of the envelope, I am equally certain that this is but one aspect of riding. One of the great things about all these afm guys and roadracers and track whores is their great confidence in themselves. In a pussified America it is refreshing to come across such certainty and strong belief. However, one of the great shortcomings of many of these guys is their great confidence and from some perspectives arrogance and what seems to be a somewhat limited perspective. Bonneville top speed runs, drag races, urban couriers, trials riders, motocrossers and those stunnahs doing circle wheelies all have very little to do with going around a roadrace circuit but all have in their own area awesome skills.

As amusing as all the AFM dickwaving may be, and I will admit I am a sucker for colorful characters, the be all, end all, ultimate measure of goodness and value for all riders is not necessarily how fast you get around the same track regardless of how certain that Holeshot is about this point. Sure, going fast is fun but when I ride my goal is to have fun, not necessarily to go faster. A racer focused on little more than shaving fractions of seconds off laptimes will have a different perspective, and there are some who will argue that he may have missed the point, mistaking second shaving for the true goal, which for most recreational riders, is having a good time.


Quote:
Originally posted by ALANRIDER7
You're comparing apples and oranges. The street is chaos. The track offers a controlled environment, allowing focus on speed and skill. The amount of mental energy you spend looking for the idiot cage drivers on the streets can be utilized to better focus on corner entry/exit speed on the track.

In a race across London, both riders could be easily taken out by a cellphone talking soccermom.
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Old 05-16-2006, 09:22 AM   #62
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Originally posted by budbandit
FWIW the level of splitting (or filtering) here is pretty weak compared with Japan, where most riders start with 50cc scooters and become comfortable with clearances measured in milimeters. I imagine it is the same compared with Europe as well.
I think this has less to do with skill and more to do with a conditioned numbness to potential threats in a very dangerous environment.
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Old 05-16-2006, 09:23 AM   #63
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Jason

No offense bro But I see a hell of a lot more dick waving, and close minded opinions from you than I do from Berto.

Knowing in fact that you're providing a service to the community and you're doing great things for people , helps me to overlook you overt Squid Rhetoric. Which is probably intentional with the mind set if you save ONE it was worth it.

But taking into consideration the help other people have brought to the sport at all levels and appreciating their skill is important. I do agree.

It's my opinion that you pick on Berto in almost every thread to flex your mental muscle persay. Is it so impossible to admit or rather recognize his contributions as well?

Or are we going to have the Holeshot vs. Budbandit shite going on forever?

I say some of your points are supremely valid. Some IMO are just nonsense. I would say with the impact you have on the n00b "community" you would have more of an open mind in regards to the tracks compliment to the street and vice versa. God knows most of you DO ride street and track.

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I didn't read anything that implied if you weren't fast you weren't shit. Rather I read,

"Wow dude I'm surprised, I actually learned alot" (this was my interpetation.)

So pull the sand out of your butt, and give a more articulate explanation of why you didn't learn anything .

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Old 05-16-2006, 09:25 AM   #64
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Originally posted by canyonrat
Cornering lines on the street vary based upon the corner. For example, a blind corner with a hidden gravel driveway could command a tight entry point with a wide middle while slowing. This would be to avoid possible unseen gravel on the inside of the corner. This would not be a good track line.
I don't think the debate here concerns the backroad / canyon riding skillset you're speaking of, but rather an "urban riding" skillset.
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Old 05-16-2006, 10:32 AM   #65
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Originally posted by MrCrash907
I don't think the debate here concerns the backroad / canyon riding skillset you're speaking of, but rather an "urban riding" skillset.
What would you consider the difference between "Street Riding" and canyon riding..

While it's not the topic I'm curious as to your opinion.
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Old 05-16-2006, 11:05 AM   #66
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Originally posted by budbandit
Yes, I am comparing apples with oranges - different skillsets, abilities and capabilities. Unless I am misreading Holeshot entirely, he is saying in effect that there is one set of skills applicable to riding motorcycles and that set is best honed and developed on the road racing track. While I am certain that there are some awesomely skilled guys who have mastered riding on the knife edge that stands between blisteringly fast on a predictable and consistant track and disasterous excursion beyond the edge of the envelope, I am equally certain that this is but one aspect of riding. One of the great things about all these afm guys and roadracers and track whores is their great confidence in themselves. In a pussified America it is refreshing to come across such certainty and strong belief. However, one of the great shortcomings of many of these guys is their great confidence and from some perspectives arrogance and what seems to be a somewhat limited perspective. Bonneville top speed runs, drag races, urban couriers, trials riders, motocrossers and those stunnahs doing circle wheelies all have very little to do with going around a roadrace circuit but all have in their own area awesome skills.

As amusing as all the AFM dickwaving may be, and I will admit I am a sucker for colorful characters, the be all, end all, ultimate measure of goodness and value for all riders is not necessarily how fast you get around the same track regardless of how certain that Holeshot is about this point. Sure, going fast is fun but when I ride my goal is to have fun, not necessarily to go faster. A racer focused on little more than shaving fractions of seconds off laptimes will have a different perspective, and there are some who will argue that he may have missed the point, mistaking second shaving for the true goal, which for most recreational riders, is having a good time.
Sigh. I'm a little sad to see such a misperception coming from someone who seems to pride themselves on cutting through the bullshit.

Who says that riding on a track is all about pushing oneself to the knife's edge? Who says that riding on the track is all about riding as fast as you possibly can?

This is common misperception from people who have never been to the track. If I remember correctly (and please do correct me if I'm wrong, budbandit), you've never been to the track and have repeated expressed that you will never go to the track.

Well, more power to you.

Sure, going to the track relaxes some of the rules that we're subject to on the street. There aren't any police, no speed limits, no Volvos turning left, etc. We ride the same 15 turns all day, so there're no surprises about which way the next turn goes.

At one of our events what there is is a lot of instructors keeping a watchful eye on you, working with you to fix long held bad habits, working with you to develop new skills, constant feedback, suggestions, recommendations and classroom sessions with discussions and information.

This has nothing to do with exploring the 'knife's edge,' except, perhaps, subconsciously extending the buffer until you reach that point.

People who come to track days only to explore the 'knife's edge' are probably -- to use one of your favorite sayings-- 'fucktards', who are exchanging the opportunity to throw their bike away on the street for at least the statistically safer option of throwing their bike away at the track.

Fortunately, we do catch at lot of these before they do hit the ground, and often they come away from the day with a new appreciation of what track days really are: a place to practice new skills and polish old skills in a reasonably safer environment.

Sure, a trackday isn't going to help you predict what that stupid driver waiting to turn left is going to do. However, a track day will help you develop the skills to execute an avoidance plan once you do predict (or observe) what they do.
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Old 05-16-2006, 11:06 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by abn375
What would you consider the difference between "Street Riding" and canyon riding..

While it's not the topic I'm curious as to your opinion.
When people refer to canyon riding, I think they're referring to a specialized subset of street riding.

It also seems to be primarily a southern california term, where most of the riding there is done in actual canyons.

Most of the people in this thread who are talking about street riding seem to be referring to the urban aspect of it. Traffic, lane sharing, city hazards, etc. Most of that has little to do with canyon riding.
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Old 05-16-2006, 11:07 AM   #68
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By the way, I should point out that the only thing overtly in common between racing and track days is the venue.

Racing IS all about going as fast as you can. Track days ARE NOT all about that.
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Old 05-16-2006, 11:36 AM   #69
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Trackdays are to help you get comfortable with your bike and confident in your ablility thus over time making you more relaxed and in better control of your bike at an accelerated pace.

When in a panic situtaion on the street, the person with more control and confidence has the obvious advantage. Have fun continuing to debate this.

Please don't bring up "but the experience on the street will help you avoid this!" to a very small degree but this experience could be quickly gained vs. the time it would require for Timmy the Rider to get the same level of confidence and control that he could achieve from the track vs. putting himself in danger on the street repeatedly trying to reach this level.
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Old 05-16-2006, 11:49 AM   #70
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Originally posted by MrCrash907
I think this has less to do with skill and more to do with a conditioned numbness to potential threats in a very dangerous environment.
Actually drivers are better in Japan as well as most of Europe than here, more skilled, more courteous and more aware of two wheelers. Thus despite the closer tolerances the predictability and attention of the drivers in combination with the overall high quality of the road surfaces (few surprise potholes etc) and lower speeds (Japan) tend to make for a safer and less chaotic splitting situation than is the case here.
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Old 05-16-2006, 11:53 AM   #71
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Ah, dude, I was not talking about casual track days or track schools, I was talking about racing. Perhaps you can help me understand the purpose of racing if it is not to go as fast as possible in order to win.


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Originally posted by christofu
Sigh. I'm a little sad to see such a misperception coming from someone who seems to pride themselves on cutting through the bullshit.

Who says that riding on a track is all about pushing oneself to the knife's edge? Who says that riding on the track is all about riding as fast as you possibly can?
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Old 05-16-2006, 12:01 PM   #72
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Originally posted by budbandit
Ah, dude, I was not talking about casual track days or track schools, I was talking about racing. Perhaps you can help me understand the purpose of racing if it is not to go as fast as possible in order to win.
"By the way, I should point out that the only thing overtly in common between racing and track days is the venue.

Racing IS all about going as fast as you can. Track days ARE NOT all about that."

Try reading all the posts before typing next time.
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Old 05-16-2006, 12:04 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert R1
Please don't bring up "but the experience on the street will help you avoid this!" to a very small degree but this experience could be quickly gained vs. the time it would require for Timmy the Rider to get the same level of confidence and control that he could achieve from the track vs. putting himself in danger on the street repeatedly trying to reach this level.
I have to disagree with your easy dismissal of the street skills that help street riders avoid situations in the first place.

I don't think that any of us argue against the real benefits of track riding from bike handling to quick responses.

But, to develop the skills involved to avoid many of the potential situations that can arise and putting yourself in the position of least vulnerability at all times takes years to develop. Just as a fast racer goes through years to become the fastest guy in the top class, so to a very safe street rider develops their awareness and ability to read the traffic patterns and intents of drivers over years of practice.
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Old 05-16-2006, 12:08 PM   #74
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Berto is actually at the top of the list of BARFers who I have not met but would like to. It is likely that I would be able to learn a lot from him both on and off the track. In the end I reckon that we probably agree a lot more than we disagree, but I think that both of us enjoy occasionally taking the other side of a philosophical position from the other. More than most, I suspect that we share a certain delight in jabbing a stick into the ant hill from time to time. I get the feeling that in real life, should a fellow rider ping Holeshot for help or advise, that despite it being hot or whatever, that he would probably go out of his way to help someone have a good track day.

As for dick waving, you should see little of that from me, but lots of folks seem to accuse me of that and similar stuff. I have never claimed to be much beyond an average rider, c+ at best who somehow survived a long history of protracted stupidity and fucktardation beyond even the wildest dreams of many on this board. Because of this good luck and recently a small dose of something, not sure if it is judgement or cowardice, I have come to the point where I have some experiences and closeminded opinions that I will from time to time insist upon sharing with the world more out of a spirit of meaness and spite than anything else. Besides, I have noted that a certain theatrical flare and embellishment tends to get attention where well reasoned, mature, elloquent expression often goes straight to the shitter.


Quote:
Originally posted by abn375
Jason

No offense bro But I see a hell of a lot more dick waving, and close minded opinions from you than I do from Berto.

Knowing in fact that you're providing a service to the community and you're doing great things for people , helps me to overlook you overt Squid Rhetoric. Which is probably intentional with the mind set if you save ONE it was worth it.

But taking into consideration the help other people have brought to the sport at all levels and appreciating their skill is important. I do agree.

It's my opinion that you pick on Berto in almost every thread to flex your mental muscle persay. Is it so impossible to admit or rather recognize his contributions as well?

Or are we going to have the Holeshot vs. Budbandit shite going on forever?

I say some of your points are supremely valid. Some IMO are just nonsense. I would say with the impact you have on the n00b "community" you would have more of an open mind in regards to the tracks compliment to the street and vice versa. God knows most of you DO ride street and track.

Anyhow.

YO onewheel thingy on the up...............................................


I didn't read anything that implied if you weren't fast you weren't shit. Rather I read,

"Wow dude I'm surprised, I actually learned alot" (this was my interpetation.)

So pull the sand out of your butt, and give a more articulate explanation of why you didn't learn anything .
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Old 05-16-2006, 12:11 PM   #75
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Originally posted by Climber
I have to disagree with your easy dismissal of the street skills that help street riders avoid situations in the first place.

I don't think that any of us argue against the real benefits of track riding from bike handling to quick responses.

But, to develop the skills involved to avoid many of the potential situations that can arise and putting yourself in the position of least vulnerability at all times takes years to develop. Just as a fast racer goes through years to become the fastest guy in the top class, so to a very safe street rider develops their awareness and ability to read the traffic patterns and intents of drivers over years of practice.
In the end we're talking about sport bikes. Being that most motorcycle accidents are actually single vehicle incidents with the rider losing control, you'd think having more control over your bike would be more beneficial than just driving through traffic constantly. Perhaps I'm different as are people I used to ride with but majority of our time was spent in the backroads and not dealing with heavy traffic at all times or worrying about traffic patterns. Obviously someone who commutes on their BMW will have a different experience but since we're discussing track/street thus it's safe to assume sportbikes are the majority of the riders we're discussing.

Traffic pattens and general awareness can still be acheived much quicker than trying to advance your level of comfort on control and comfort on the street vs the track.
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