Net-Moto :: Community :: Racing :: :: Racing Videos Sponsor :: Contact
 Forums   Features   Trackdays   Moto Crash Incidents   Race Team   CMSP Training   Sponsors      Donate   Terms of Service 
BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum  Home   UserCP   Register   Calendar   Members   FAQ   Search  AMA

Go Back   BARF - Bay Area Riders Forum > Rider’s Rights. Presented by Cycle Gear > Streetriders Rights


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-17-2015, 08:45 PM   #1
ludovico
Commuting Rider
 

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hayward
Motorcycles: sportbike
Name:
The Silent Majority

This is a quote attributed to Richard Nixon, using it doesn't mean I would have voted for him. Pun intended, I am writing about obnoxious noise. I am writing about bikes (and some cars and pickups) which have been modified to be extra loud. I am not talking about an exhaust which adds a little “character” to the sound. I think that's stupid, useless and somewhat annoying, but nothing to get bent out of shape over. I would have probably never even mentioned it. Even new High End cars often come with the “feature” of a tuned exhaust note – making it “special”.

Now, that I have pissed off a bunch of people that I actually want for allies, smart move, dude, here's who I am really writing about: The few *#&$*&*'s that can't get enough, that have to break even the farthest stretch of common sense, that artificially, purposely, with total disregard to anybody else modify their vehicles beyond any respect to the noise they emanate in order to purposely annoy other people and actually assault and invade their lives.

Here's what's happening. Those few blow it for all of us. Overall society is slow to react, it will take a while but eventually people will lose tolerance for this shit and then the usual “crack down” will happen. More laws, much stricter limits, “bikers not welcome” attitude.

Why do we, the “silent majority” let that happen? Why do we wait for new signs “No motorcycles” to go up? In Denmark I have seen it “Knallerten forbud” - Knallerten is Danish for motorcycle and it doesn't take much imagination about the origin of the word. In German, “Knall” is a loud bang as from a gunshot.

Sure, many people might think, “I don't give a shit about about Denmark” - just a curious side fact, search for happiest country or happiest people. You'll find Denmark very high on the list.
Sure, you might still not give a shit, and frankly I don't give much about that either, but that's not the point. The point is that most people will put up with a lot of shit, but at some point they have had it. Then they will go out and ask for change. In thermodynamics this is called "activation energy". Once a bigger part of population will start to ask for more pressure on bikers, the stupid little AMA lobby or a group of aftermarket parts manufacturer special interest group won't cut it any more. Just look at the number of cars compared to the number of bikes. There are probably more Priuses on my morning commute than bikes. Just Priuses.

A movie “Noise” (worth seeing) has already been made, luckily it's not about bikes but mainly car alarms (which in itself says a lot about the sheer numbers) but bikes could be next. Actually should be.

Back to the Silent Majority.
If we let the few idiots ruin it for us, we have only ourselves to blame. I posted this already, I'll repeat here briefly: A few nights ago, some neighbors burned extremely loud several minute fire works (not 4th of July, regular weeknight). I got up, walked over and inquired about their state of mind. They basically said, what's my problem why don't I complain about the motorcycles instead.
I don't know if they knew in that moment who I was and that I actually ride every day (it was obviously dark plus we don't know each other personally), or if it was just a generic statement. Since stark words flew back and forth, I'll let everybody cool off a little and then go talk to them again. In any case, they are annoyed, just like me. If that's actually the reason – kind of a hate-firework, I don't know, will find out hopefully. In any case, it doesn't matter – it's just one case but shows that people are starting to get annoyed.

So, here's my request: Let's end the silent majority thing, at least as bikers. I assume, well, hope that those fags (thanks, Southpark) are in fact a minority even just amongst bikers. Reading through this forum at least I get that impression. Maybe there are some of them that are too chicken to come out or too illiterate to post anything outside of the well known platitudes, but in the grand scheme I am hoping for a strong majority. Let's no longer tolerate them taking a crap at our sport/entertainment/transportation and ruin our reputation in all of society.

Getting back to the crowd I pissed off in the beginning. You are in the most vulnerable position and have the highest need to act quickly. Why? Obviously, the most likely scenario society/politics will come up with is the simplest one: Make any modification to the exhaust system or even entire bike illegal and make sure it gets enforced. Enforcing that is pretty straightforward, too. And again, the motorcycle lobby might win in a small beach town, but it's not going to stand a chance against a majority in the population.

It would be interesting to know how many people in this forum are on “each side”.
a) Silent Majority which needs to speak up
b) Obnoxious hooligans who need to shut up
ludovico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 09:49 PM   #2
HeatXfer
Not Erudite, just er
 
HeatXfer's Avatar
 
AMA #3295418

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: East Bay
Motorcycles: '87 Paso 750. '07 KTM 990
Name: Chris
Wow. I've read all your posts in all three threads and it's working. My eyes are drying out and I want to hear Beethoven's 9th again so tell Dr.Brodsky to flip the record, me droog.
__________________
I know you think you understand what you though I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant
- Robert McKloskey

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity.
- Isaac Asimov
HeatXfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 09:58 PM   #3
aram
Veteran
 
aram's Avatar
 
Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Santa Cruz
Motorcycles: 05 sv650
Name:
The truth is there are a lot of asshole motorcyclists that do stuff that makes people dislike motorcyclists. This includes but is not limited to: making a lot of noise, driving like an idiot, using roads as a racetrack. Much more percentage wise than car drivers.

I don't really know what to say beyond that. It's just how motorcycling is.

The other day I saw a motorcyclist that didn't want to sit in traffic where there wasn't room to split. I mean he could have tried to go on the side of the cars (1 lane of traffic) but I guess he thought there wasn't enough room so he just passed over the double yellow and went the wrong way down the road. Some lady in a minivan almost creamed him. I can sometimes hear loud sportbikes that have to be 1/2 a mile away from me sometimes.
aram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2015, 03:04 AM   #4
Pushrod
Veteran
 
Pushrod's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central Florida
Motorcycles: VTR, R100RS,CB500
Name:
You have 'Tricky Dick', I have Mae West. "Too much is never enough".

While I agree that obnoxious noise creates problems for the reasonable among us, you have to admit that controlling the behavior of the immature is difficult.

Bike Week has become "Too much" for me. Too much alcohol, too much open pipes, too much chest thumping, just too much over the top anything goes its all about me behaviors. Waco biker arrests, anyone?

There is no answer, just don't be in the way when the police respond to complaints.

Mark me as 'silent majority'. But speak up to whom? I am loathe to approach the knuckle dragger on an open piped Harley doing a throttle tune outside a bar. You?

Me? Well tuned 90 degree V-twin with a tightly packed set of Two Brothers exhaust riding solo, sober and at the pace. The policman in the cruiser with the windows up and the A/C on doesn't notice me.
Pushrod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2015, 09:26 AM   #5
KevinB
Rolling Chicane
 
KevinB's Avatar
 
AMA #: 3217183

Join Date: May 2014
Location: RwC
Motorcycles: CBR600RR, Gladius
Name: Kevin!
I don't care for excessively loud bikes. My cbr600rr is stupid loud and I have been thinking of putting a stock slip on or some kind of dB killer. It was a track bike with full exhaust. May be again but even then I find the noise a bit distracting. I hate commuting on it and rarely do because I know it blasts right at head level for drivers.

I thought aftermarket exhaust was already illegal (in many states)? I think it's a matter of enforcement.
KevinB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2015, 09:50 AM   #6
ludovico
Commuting Rider
 

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hayward
Motorcycles: sportbike
Name:
Thanks for your answers, how about this

I understand, it's difficult and uncomfortable for many to confront terrorists. We have a life and want to live it in peace with the ones we enjoy having around instead of fighting with people who make it their thing to terrorize and intimidate others, like ISIS or our noisy "travelers of the night".

Fair enough, so here's an idea: We bring back the good old outlaw regulation. To speak in law code:
Any person installing and using exhaust equipment purposed to disturb the peace shall be deemed an outlaw. Such a person expressly consents to be placed outside the law's protection and can be made a target for running over with vehicles, driven off the road, shot or any other means left to the discretion of the pursuing individuals.

According to what I am hearing and reading from the people advocating their loud "sport", that's how they view themselves anyways, so I assume they agree. That way, people have a clear choice to go there or not, others have a choice to live with the noise or do something about it. Some even get target practice with their favorite guns on live targets or get to re-enact their favorite video game. Also, if you actually have a loud vehicle and you survive for a while, you can justify your claim to be a hero.

I advocate that BARF try to pass this law into effect.
ludovico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2015, 12:22 PM   #7
NB0tt
Veteran
 
NB0tt's Avatar
 
AMA #3302970
1% Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Livergulch
Motorcycles: r dumb
Name:
Holy cow who took a piss in your cornflakes this morning?
NB0tt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2015, 06:32 PM   #8
ludovico
Commuting Rider
 

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hayward
Motorcycles: sportbike
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NB0tt View Post
Holy cow who took a piss in your cornflakes this morning?
That would actually not be so bad, I'd move the Cornflakes to the side and have toast instead. No harm done. I'm easy and peaceful.

But the noise is pervasive and unavoidable, can't move it aside. Our house in Hayward doesn't have AC, doesn't need it either as with the windows open this is a perfect summer. But when I need to make a phone call, I have to close the windows, people have asked me if I was calling from a race track!

What gives them the right ???
ludovico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2015, 07:32 PM   #9
NeilInPacifica
Veteran
 
NeilInPacifica's Avatar
 
Contributor +++

Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacifica
Motorcycles: 2017 FZ-09 2016 12GS, 2015 Versys 650
Name: Neil
There is an alternate future reality possible. Consider where bicycles in The City have been, where they are now politically, and how they got there.

I can remember in the early '80s when the SF Bike Coalition was just a handful of people meeting once in a while in a UCSF classroom. No money, no power, no members. Now look at Market Street...it's a green bike heaven, soon to be no cars allowed.

Dream and then act; the future will be ours. We are potentially more fuel efficient, more environmentally friendly, easier on the climate change (if you believe that stuff), cause less congestion, faster commute times, etc. etc.
NeilInPacifica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2015, 12:17 PM   #10
ludovico
Commuting Rider
 

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hayward
Motorcycles: sportbike
Name:
Trip to the High Sierras

Yes, I can be positive, too. I took 3 days off work and took the bike into the Mountains. Stayed at a friends' cabin, relaxed, swam, hiked and rode a few hundred miles including several passes. Most of all: Sleep!!! California is beautiful and up there: Seriously quiet!

I encountered numerous other bikers, obviously, most of them cruisers, a big percentage riding two up, maybe half riding in groups. What I found surprising: I didn't hear them. In the beginning I was downright afraid of loud bikes sort of "tearing open my barely healed wound" - but there weren't any. No loud cars either.

Is it coincidence, just my paranoia or is there something to it? Do people with very loud bikes -and monkey bars and other "go-fast" stuff - maybe not go a few hundred miles into high mountains as ..., err, I almost not dare say it: They can't ? Too uncomfortable, too cumbersome, can't negotiate the turns, can't take enough tools to keep bike from rattling itself apart, etc. ? Gas price?

Or is it that the majority of people up there go there for the serenity and the experience of that breathtaking nature scenery and in that sense they are just a different crowd of people in the first place? Or would the noisemakers just be sad because up there they don't really have an audience? Not much bragging rights stemming from waking up Bambi?

Do I just not hear them much because they are usually coming the other way and the famous loud pipes radiate their sound backwards in order to do their job, which - of course - is to save lives?

Whatever it is, dear noisemakers, why can't we have it down here? If you insist, we could still hate you -promised, if that's what you really want!- even if you stop waking us up in the middle of the night. You can still call yourselves "Most Hated" and you can keep your monkey bars and no rear suspension if that's what makes a man. You could still avoid riding in areas where a capable bike and counter steering is more useful than a strict belief in body english and brand legacy. That would, in fact, be great as the typical group of yours due to your erratic riding is harder to pass than the average 100 foot RV driven by 90 year olds. Also the animals love it quiet.
ludovico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2015, 02:44 PM   #11
ludovico
Commuting Rider
 

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hayward
Motorcycles: sportbike
Name:
This from the (1981) "Hurt report"

Quote:
Research Findinqs. The most common motorcycle accident involves another vehicle causing the collision by violating the right-of-way of the motorcycle at an inter- section, usually by turning left in front of the oncoming motorcycle because the car driver did not see the motorcycle. The motorcycle rider involved in the accident is usually inconspicuous in traffic, inexperienced, untrained, unlicensed, unprotected and uninsured and does a poor job of avoiding the collision.
http://isddc.dot.gov/OLPFiles/NHTSA/013695.pdf


Probably very old news to most. While I don't know how "uninsured" plays into this scenario, inexperienced, unprotected and "does a poor job..." is pretty clear. I do take this with a grain of salt and it is quite old, nevertheless, I think there is a lot of truth in it.

I have seen a lot of people ride and can honestly say I am surprised (well, happy for them, but surprised) that they are still alive.

1. Lack of braking skills: Afraid to apply front brake, not two fingers covering brake lever AT ALL TIMES, trusting rear brake more for worry about front wheel slide. The rear doesn't do shit when you REALLY need to slow down NOW. Two fingers over the brake lever at all times make it IMMEDIATE to apply the brake rather than fumbling to reach for it, no need to change hand position and possibly no danger that hand can't do it as it freezes in fear. Also see 5. A decent bike with good tires and suspension setup can slow down at roughly 1g, but most riders are so afraid and untrained, they don't come even close to that.

2. Target Fixation: Don't want to hit that vehicle turning left in front of you? Don't stare at it!! While braking as much as possible, find a way around it (most likely behind it) and look there - because you go where you look. Practice that!!! If you are afraid of not making the right decision in a split second, just practice to ALWAYS go around the back of it. Really aim around it, don't count on them continuing to get out of the way as they often slam the brakes when they do finalize realize you are there.

3. Not understanding counter steering: A bike is not steered with "body english" or any of that bullshit. Trying to avoid the left turning SUV in your path? Look left and use all your might to push the left handlebar. Or die.

4. Not practicing: Too worried about cleaning the bike, putting loud pipes on and bragging about this or that bullshit. Go to a race track and practice. Find out how little you know about riding motorcycles. You can tell when somebody is bad by the way they sit on a bike:

5. Stiff arms, holding on to the steering: Whether clip-ons or monkey bars, the handle bar is for steering and not for holding on. Any force into the steering from holding on (see 3. counter steering) is a steering input and will be interpreted by the bike as such - making it go to some direction, but likely not where you need it to go. You hold on with your legs, grabbing the tank between the knees and use your torso muscles (if you have any, otherwise try the beer belly) to stabilize yourself. Then your arms are free to steer. This goes along with two fingers covering the brake lever - makes it less likely to "death grip" the steering.

6. If you are really interested in your safety, buy a bike with ABS. Learn how you can apply all brakes with full force at all times, rain or shine, and immediately and how technology will save your ass even you have no idea how it works.

7. Don't try to save money on tires and maintenance: Crappy tires on a bike are like running around with a loaded gun pointed at your head. Crappy, worn out suspension - same thing. Shocks work hard on these crappy roads and need to be adjusted and rebuilt rather frequently.

8. Gear: Helmet is obvious, but what I find much more important is boots, leathers and gloves. I crashed four times so far (all low siders, some track, some street) - helmet never touched the ground but boots, leathers (or aerostitch) and gloves took a serious beating which otherwise my skin and bones would have absorbed. Aerostitch was factory repaired, I never got even a scratch.

9. Ride like it's your body that's on the line: Wait a minute, it IS your body on the line. How can you seriously trust others (that you so despise) to protect you from harm instead of doing that yourself? By first of all looking ahead and watching what's going on. I have driven a lot of miles in heavy traffic in all scenarios, I have only truly been surprised a very rare number of times. In by far most cases, you will get some warning that somebody is about to do something stupid. If you still crash, it's most likely because you weren't paying attention.

10. Stereotype: Here it really works. A gold/brown colored Prius or Corolla will behave differently than a raised pickup or lowered Camaro or hopped up import racer. You can see it in advance. Both types can have bad drivers in them, but one category is timid-bad, the other is aggressive-bad which is more dangerous.

Anybody who makes even the slightest hint about "safety" (for example with respect to loud pipes) but has not seriously worked on above list first, is a fucking idiot -- and should definitely NOT ride around on any motorcycle, I propose bus or Taxi instead, because they also make bad car drivers. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. Interestingly, many of the same people who proclaim "loud pipes..." are also the ones who don't understand or even dispute counter steering - and are ass backwards in so many other ways. Don't be part of that crowd - they are on their way to extinction, one way or the other. Don't believe me? Go to Keith Code, they'll demonstrate it. Note, they don't talk about loud pipes there.
ludovico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2015, 12:54 PM   #12
danate
#hot4beks
 
danate's Avatar
 
AMA #: 2948810
Contributor + + + + 3%

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: East East Bay
Motorcycles: Big pompous Beemers
Name: Nate
So you want us to run over people will loud pipes to try and stop them because they are as bad as ISIS?

A little extreme buddy. People put illegal exhausts on many vehicles and while it certainly can be annoying (and I'd not be surprised if it leads to motorcycles getting smog checks), it is not terrorism. A stronger argument could be made against sport bikes and race replicas in general as they have caused way more carnage than loud pipes ever have. Should an 18 year old really be able to buy a 180mph race bike for a few grand? I could easily see THAT getting outlawed (since we are a society that protects ourselves from...ourselves).

Do I want that? No.

While I understand your frustration, you are coming off as an entitled person who wants to enforce YOUR priorities on other people.
danate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2015, 10:31 PM   #13
ludovico
Commuting Rider
 

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hayward
Motorcycles: sportbike
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by danate View Post
So you want us to run over people will loud pipes to try and stop them because they are as bad as ISIS?

A little extreme buddy. People put illegal exhausts on many vehicles and while it certainly can be annoying (and I'd not be surprised if it leads to motorcycles getting smog checks), it is not terrorism. A stronger argument could be made against sport bikes and race replicas in general as they have caused way more carnage than loud pipes ever have. Should an 18 year old really be able to buy a 180mph race bike for a few grand? I could easily see THAT getting outlawed (since we are a society that protects ourselves from...ourselves).

Do I want that? No.

While I understand your frustration, you are coming off as an entitled person who wants to enforce YOUR priorities on other people.
Entitled? Sure, I am entitled, I guess it depends on your definition. Living in one of the nicer places in the world, having a place, freedom and in general a peaceful life. Yes, I have had what I'd call a good education and use that education to make a living. I, personally, would not call that entitlement, it's how life should be and I am actually trying hard to afford this kind of life to more people, or in other words to spread that entitlement instead of making more for myself.

Do I want to enforce MY priorities on other people? Yes, of course, like everyone else, I think I am right (in some ways) and have something to say.
I do, however, focus on specific priorities - the ones that actually concern me specifically. I don't care what people do which does not concern me. When I can't sleep because people make useless noise than that DOES concern me. And everybody agrees on that pretty much - which is why there are laws governing that kind of noise. Gay marriage? Smoking pot? Believes? I don't care, it's anybody's private business. I am absolutely for as much personal freedom as possible. However, that freedom ends where other people's lives are affected. Noise (especially at night) affects other lives extremely - sleep deprivation is serious enough to be used for torture. Gay Marriage doesn't affect me the least bit so I shut up about it.

Keeping an 18 year old from killing himself with a 180mph bike by passing legislation? Honestly, I don't know. That's a difficult subject as first of all - on a motorcycle the danger is typically mostly to one self. As far as I know in accidents motorcycles rarely do much damage to others. Is a 180mph race bike useful in public traffic (where the speed limit is 65mph in general) is questionable. I myself have a exactly a bike like that. It's fun, but I think I am responsible with it and I am certainly not making extra noise (bike has stock exhaust of course).
Therefore, there's two topics in this:
a) The "affecting others" part: Probably relatively low
b) Keeping young people (who we claim "don't know better because they're still immature" from hurting themselves

The second one is very questionable. Having three kids myself, of course I want to protect them, including from their own stupidity. In my experience, however, that works best through education.

I do believe (well, ok, strongly so) that noise from illegally (!!) modified vehicles does not serve any useful purpose but is very detrimental to many people's lives, mine included. Yes, that's what I am strongly arguing for and I do want to push that (my) priorities on others, admittedly.
I think I have a point, though. By the way - I don't want anybody run over.
ludovico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2015, 03:42 AM   #14
latindane
Learner. EuroPW, NaPS
 
latindane's Avatar
 
Contributor++

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Denmark
Motorcycles: 02 RSV Mille street, 07 GSX-R750 track
Name: K
Quote:
Originally Posted by ludovico View Post
...In Denmark I have seen it “Knallerten forbud” - Knallerten is Danish for motorcycle and it doesn't take much imagination about the origin of the word. In German, “Knall” is a loud bang as from a gunshot...
I just stumbled upon this. You are probably referring to signs like these:

The Danish word for motorcycle is motorcykel. A knallert is a moped or small scooter (legally up to 30km/hour) that can be legally ridden on bicycle paths (any other motor vehicle is not). The prohibition is usually on paths where noise would be disturbing (say a cycle path through a piece of woods close to the city, visited by many for peace and quiet).
Of course, there are always some idiots who ignore the signs, but the great majority does abide by the rules.

In terms of motorcycle pipes, Danes are as obsessed with making unnecessary noise as people in the bay area (if not more), it's also illegal, and very little is done about it in terms of enforcement (as in the bay area, if my memory serves me right). I'm pretty sure it's still a minority. If the topic comes up, I tend to speak my mind and give my own anecdote that I took away a race exhaust and put in the original shortly after buying my (used) bike.
__________________
Silly rabbit! Trix are for squids!

The BARF store Contribute to BARF BARF Terms of Service (TOS) Need I say it? I
Please link your videos as well.
latindane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2015, 09:16 AM   #15
ludovico
Commuting Rider
 

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hayward
Motorcycles: sportbike
Name:
Quote:
Originally Posted by latindane View Post
I just stumbled upon this. You are probably referring to signs like these:

The Danish word for motorcycle is motorcykel. A knallert is a moped or small scooter (legally up to 30km/hour) that can be legally ridden on bicycle paths (any other motor vehicle is not). The prohibition is usually on paths where noise would be disturbing (say a cycle path through a piece of woods close to the city, visited by many for peace and quiet).
Of course, there are always some idiots who ignore the signs, but the great majority does abide by the rules.

In terms of motorcycle pipes, Danes are as obsessed with making unnecessary noise as people in the bay area (if not more), it's also illegal, and very little is done about it in terms of enforcement (as in the bay area, if my memory serves me right). I'm pretty sure it's still a minority. If the topic comes up, I tend to speak my mind and give my own anecdote that I took away a race exhaust and put in the original shortly after buying my (used) bike.
Yes, that's what I was referring to. Obviously my memory was slightly off (was there in my youth, which is unfortunately a while back).
However, my point, I think is clear: I don't want signs like these and if we don't watch it we will get them. In fact, while this stupid noise is happening I am ALL FOR signs like these.

Great - that you even went through the hassle of reverting back to a stock exhaust, I really wish more people could do that!!
ludovico is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.