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Old 02-27-2018, 02:25 PM   #16
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I appreciate the feedback everyone. I am definitely taking notes and learning a lot here.
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Old 02-27-2018, 02:40 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by j5m View Post
Yeah, I did their two day school last year and what they teach there aligns with what people are saying here.

Though, in the context of the school and Laguna Seca, maintenance throttle wasn't at all a thing you were supposed to be doing.
T2 is the only corner at Laguna that requires some maintenance throttle IMO. all the other turns, even Rainey, u can brake to the apex and throttle out.
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Old 02-27-2018, 02:55 PM   #18
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Normally I'd agree with this comment, but it's not universal. The turn into T3A dictates that at pace, a rider is going to be carrying lean angle over the crest. Without that, there's no way to make the corner...hence the reason people end up on the dirt on the other side of the candy striped on the exit to T3A. This is one of the corners where a rider is adding throttle and lean angle and massively loading the rear tire. Hence the reason he lost the rear...cold tires, side of the tire, blah bleh, bang.
I don't think he lost the rear. the rpms spike after the hes already lost it, not before.

in the vid posted above, Ken Hill doesn't add throttle and lean angle at the same time through T3A. he picks up the gas a little bit between 3 and 3A, but its not a hard acceleration. he also seems to load the front some while getting to the inside curb of 3A, suggesting he reduced to maintenance throttle or dragged the brakes. yes, hes driving over the crest. but hes removing lean angle coming off the inside curb. thats the part the OP didnt do. OP passed his apex, but kept adding lean angle afterwards.

if a rider needs to add lots of throttle before the apex of T3A, I bet they took T3 too slowly.
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Old 02-27-2018, 04:47 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by thasmydjay View Post
In Twist of The Wrist 2 it says that the throttle should be rolled on “evenly and smoothly throughout the remainder of the turn.” Does that mean any acceleration while turning or going through the turn? Sorry, I’m a little confused.
You're getting some answers to this question that reflect a misunderstanding of the "throttle control rule," as it was written in ToTWII. The book covered the topic well enough to work with but there is additional information not called out in writing that CSS emphasizes more in briefings today.

This is the quote that we're talking about, verbatim:

Quote:
Once the throttle is cracked on. it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn
Every word in the quote matters. People seem to gloss over "Once the throttle is cracked on," and conclude that the instruction is to roll on the gas through the whole turn. Taking that phrase into account however, we see that the matter of when we crack the throttle on is still unexplained.

Chapter 5 of the book addresses the "when." Chapter 5 starts off with a phrase that has tended to stick in people's minds: "as soon as possible." Unfortunately, the key phrase that relates to precise throttle timing is at the end of a later paragraph. My experience is that people gloss over it. Here is the paragraph:

Quote:
There are some additional guidelines. Normally, riders don't get
back onto the throttle until after the steering is completed. This makes
sense. During the steering process, it is very difficult to work back into the
throttle smoothly enough to keep it from jerking the bike and upsetting it,
To meet the throttle standard, steering is completed before you start to
get it on.
The bold above is as found in the book. This is crucial to understanding that the rules of throttle control apply no matter whether you trail brake or finish your braking before the turn and flick the bike. The steering (lean angle change) must be completed before you crack the gas on. This does agree with most of the input you're getting, in the sense that adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is not a good idea.

Finally, the detail that isn't spelled out in the book is this: Not only should the lean angle be set, but the bike should be on the line you want it on before you crack open the throttle.

Every now and then, a rider will crack on the gas before the bike is fully pointed and find himself running wide. Why? Rolling on the gas makes the bike tend to hold the line it's on. If you roll on before the bike is pointed, the bike will hold that line instead.

The location in the turn where you crack open the throttle will entirely depend on the rate at which you steer the bike.

This information is not out of date. Bikes still handle this way. "Being on the gas through the whole corner" isn't wrong because of any recent developments; it always was wrong.

With all of the above said, I don't think you crashed because you were on the gas. The front let go, which is quite consistent with crashing on cold tires. Between the temperature and the bike getting light at the top of the crest, the front slid.
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Old 02-27-2018, 05:06 PM   #20
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guh Andy, both quotes u presented are full of words that don't have concrete meanings, even w/ the context given. "cracking the throttle" & "steering" are so vague. the meaning u suggested is def not what they mean to me. no wonder y ppl are confused by that book.
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Old 02-27-2018, 05:14 PM   #21
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Watched the video again, you're right. He totally lost the front.

My point with T3A is there's not a lot of opportunity to take away lean angle as you add throttle coming off the corner, and on a 600, you have to add a good squirt of throttle to get to T4 in any good time (as you know). I don't think anyone's dragging brakes up the hill, even on the flick.

EDIT: In short, I think we agree though; too much lean angle for too little heat in the tires.
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Old 02-27-2018, 05:18 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by stangmx13 View Post
guh Andy, both quotes u presented are full of words that don't have concrete meanings, even w/ the context given. "cracking the throttle" & "steering" are so vague. the meaning u suggested is def not what they mean to me. no wonder y ppl are confused by that book.
This, in spite of all the definitions included in the book that used to piss people off.

For the purpose of the conversation, "cracking" the throttle on is initially opening it just enough to take up the driveline slack.

I agree that people have different ideas about what "steering" is. We can simplify it to mean whatever you did to put the bike on the line you want to ride. That really covers changing lean angle and waiting for the bike to be on line.

Those are the conditions that need to be met before opening the throttle makes sense. If we recall that rolling on the gas stabilizes the bike and know that a stable bike resists lean angle changes, it follows that the bike will be easier to steer when we are off the gas. And we don't want the bike holding its line until we're happy with the direction the bike is pointed.
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Old 02-27-2018, 05:36 PM   #23
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Poor DJ.

Just remember, despite all the rest of the shit we're talking about; YOUR TIRES WERE COLD. Read Robert's post on how to get them further up to temp. It's a good one.
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Old 02-27-2018, 05:43 PM   #24
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Poor DJ.

Just remember, despite all the rest of the shit we're talking about; YOUR TIRES WERE COLD. Read Robert's post on how to get them further up to temp. It's a good one.
Haha! I enjoy reading all the posts. Thank you though, I will definitely keep that in mind.
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Old 02-27-2018, 05:53 PM   #25
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This, in spite of all the definitions included in the book that used to piss people off.

For the purpose of the conversation, "cracking" the throttle on is initially opening it just enough to take up the driveline slack.

I agree that people have different ideas about what "steering" is. We can simplify it to mean whatever you did to put the bike on the line you want to ride. That really covers changing lean angle and waiting for the bike to be on line.

Those are the conditions that need to be met before opening the throttle makes sense. If we recall that rolling on the gas stabilizes the bike and know that a stable bike resists lean angle changes, it follows that the bike will be easier to steer when we are off the gas. And we don't want the bike holding its line until we're happy with the direction the bike is pointed.
I bet the book tried (tries?) to re-define a bunch of terms, which ppl didnt like

your definition of "cracked" and both quotes seem to ignore the concept of maintenance throttle (definition below). slower riders spend far more time at maintenance throttle than faster riders because they let off the brakes sooner. that means the suggested location to "crack and roll-on" is much sooner OR they are told to engine brake. the first suggestion is bad, the second isnt ideal. this "throttle technique" seems to setup slower riders for failure. on top of that, there are 1-2 corners on most tracks that require waiting at maintenance throttle. im sure there are more parts in the book that cover this. but its really shitty when the first thing that ppl remember is a bad idea in some situations.

I don't like equating steering to lean angle or line changes AND suggesting to throttle after steering because I def steer out of a corner. I use the bars and my legs to impart lean angle changes after starting my drive. just another asterisk to small quotes that don't tell the whole story... a big problem w/ teaching riding through the internet

maintenance throttle == throttle that causes a motorcycle to maintain its speed
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Old 02-27-2018, 09:16 PM   #26
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maintenance throttle == throttle that causes a motorcycle to maintain its speed
I can't address everything as I'm getting ready for a trip, but wanted to note that "maintenance throttle" is a term that came into vogue long after ToTWII was published. It describes exactly the same thing as a slow roll-on, as that's what it takes to maintain speed.
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Old 02-27-2018, 10:45 PM   #27
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I can't address everything as I'm getting ready for a trip, but wanted to note that "maintenance throttle" is a term that came into vogue long after ToTWII was published. It describes exactly the same thing as a slow roll-on, as that's what it takes to maintain speed.
no worries. no rush on this good convo.

I figured it was a newer term. I think I first saw it on BARF sometimes in the mid-2000s.

I wouldn't say they describe "exactly the same thing". a "roll-on" doesn't have a defined end. it could end at half throttle, at WOT, anything. if u told a rider to "slowly roll on the throttle", hopefully they'd ask, "how much?". theres no way that lack of definition doesn't cause some confusion.

in contrast, "maintenance throttle" is VERY specific. while it pretty much never means the same throttle %, it has a specific result. its also a very ez concept for ppl to grasp and its something thats very ez to do with your right hand. it might even be one of the first skills any rider actually masters... go through this corner without adjusting speed... done.

oh, I have no idea if you brought up "slow roll-on" in relation to your previous posts / quotes. if u did, im gonna be confused hehe.
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Old 02-28-2018, 08:02 AM   #28
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OP: As you can see, there is more than one school of thought on track terminology and tactics.

What I suggest you take away from this thread is awareness about cold track, tire temperature, and the importance of getting heat into your tires. That's what brought your crash about. There are certainly areas to discuss about how you approach the track with technique, and how you describe it, but the important message here is the one about cold tires and going out with that in mind and a strategy to get heat into the tires and suspension.

I certainly urge you to attend a Keigwin event when Ken Hill is teaching, there is no added cost for that ( he attends many events a year, both schools ( higher cost) and trackdays, and teaches at both. )
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Old 03-01-2018, 09:13 AM   #29
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Hey DJ! I pitted next to you in the garage during the weekend; it was nice meeting you! I saw you rolling in after you got picked up after the crash and wanted to chat with you more, but I thought it was best to give you your space. Glad you're seeking out advice here!

Something that's popularly discussed in motorsports is the traction circle, which you may want to google to read up on / watch videos. The ELI5 explanation is basically that you have vertical forces, which are accelerating and braking, and lateral, which turning left and right. For a given radius, as you're increasing the forces in one axis, you gotta let up on the other. Example, if you're braking and entering a turn, you gotta let off the brakes as you turn in... when you drive out, you gotta let off the turn as you throttle out.

I jumped around your 2nd video a bit and noticed that you were throttling in some places that could have gotten you into trouble, notably on turn-ins in 8 / esses. My heart stopped for a few seconds here and there, as a few of those moments could have potentially led to a crash.

The pace dictates the margin for error, and so when you start going faster you have less room for mistakes. My advice is to slow down and work on fundamentals like when to brake, when to accelerate, and how smoothly you go about doing each. From what i've seen, those areas need some refinement for the pace you are trying to carry. It sucks to hear this because you see other people going faster and it's easy to think, man, I can do what they're doing and probably more! That's what was going through my head when I started breaking out of C-group and into B. Riders in A group aren't faster just because they're twisting the throttle and grabbing the brakes harder... it's all the in-between nuances that support their consistency and create the opportunity for speed. It's important to develop technique that is scaleable in a safe manner.

Hope to see you soon!
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Old 03-01-2018, 09:54 AM   #30
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Something that's popularly discussed in motorsports is the traction circle, which you may want to google to read up on / watch videos. The ELI5 explanation is basically that you have vertical forces, which are accelerating and braking, and lateral, which turning left and right. For a given radius, as you're increasing the forces in one axis, you gotta let up on the other. Example, if you're braking and entering a turn, you gotta let off the brakes as you turn in... when you drive out, you gotta let off the turn as you throttle out.
unfortunately, the traction circle is an oversimplification and especially isnt valid for braking. its a good "newb" concept that might help some people learn. but as u get faster, it becomes more and more invalid and u need to forget it.

front brake application loads the front tire a lot and increases the size of the contact patch. this increases grip. so, holding some brake even at max lean allows u to go faster. Ive prob had at least 60% brake pressure with my knee on the ground into some corners and ~20% at max lean angle.... and im 2-3 seconds off lap records. WSBK & MA pros likely hold more brake pressure later into the corner. they do trail, but not enough to make a traction circle a valid concept. so be careful w/ taking this concept as gospel.

funny story... every time ive tucked the front in the past 2 years, i was off the brakes. yet on later laps, id go through that same corner faster while still holding the brakes and not crash.
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