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Old 06-12-2019, 05:29 PM   #16
RightCoastBias
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KTMs timeline vs Yamaha's is a silly comparison. Yamaha totally fucked up and dragged their feet on getting the T7 to market.

They debuted the T7 concept at EICMA 2016 and we won't see it in the states for over a year. Total fuck up.

Usually bikes are shown at EICMA and come out the following year, or concepts the yeah following that.

From what I've heard, most mfgs take 3 years to go from concept to production. That means KTM likely had the bike in the works at the same time as Yamaha, or got on it right after the T7 blew up. Plenty of time to develop a bike.

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Old 06-12-2019, 05:32 PM   #17
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I definitely wouldn't agree they're "rushing unrefined products to market".
I mean, the 690 Enduro had a list of flaws as long as your arm that you basically needed to "Fix" as soon as the bike left the showroom floor. They quietly updated the parts and fixed it in later revisions, but never quite issued a recall.

Exhaust melting the body panels and turn signals, rocker arms mulching themselves, fuel pumps failing, injectors clogging, shitty gas cap design, weak fuel tank bolts, shock preload collar stripping out, impossible to adjust preload without taking the rear of the bike off, electrical problems due to lack of reinforcement in the wiring, etc.

I say this as someone who owned one, loved it, and will likely buy another one again soon . . .
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Old 06-12-2019, 05:59 PM   #18
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Every single KTM owner I know personally has had their bike break down or have catastrophic failure at one point or another, often multiple times. Though they absolutely rave about how amazing they are at the same time, so maybe the pros outweigh the cons.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:31 PM   #19
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Every single KTM owner I know personally has had their bike break down or have catastrophic failure at one point or another, often multiple times. Though they absolutely rave about how amazing they are at the same time, so maybe the pros outweigh the cons.
That sounds so much like Harley owners...

Interestingly, Harley is the benchmark that KTM just surpassed. I guess that sort of demonstrates the reality of most motorcycle owners.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:41 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by kuksul08 View Post
Every single KTM owner I know personally has had their bike break down or have catastrophic failure at one point or another, often multiple times. Though they absolutely rave about how amazing they are at the same time, so maybe the pros outweigh the cons.
If you don't count flat tires while riding and dead batteries, I've never had any breakdowns or catastrophic failures.

Maybe you just don't personally know the right kind of people.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:43 PM   #21
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If you don't count flat tires while riding and dead batteries, I've never had any breakdowns or catastrophic failures.

Maybe you just don't personally know the right kind of people.
You also like your XR650L....
(Totally teasing you)
Glad to read your posts Scott!
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:18 PM   #22
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Every single KTM owner I know personally has had their bike break down or have catastrophic failure at one point or another, often multiple times. Though they absolutely rave about how amazing they are at the same time, so maybe the pros outweigh the cons.
I bought a 5 year old dl650 with 30k miles and a blown engine = weestroms are unreliable garbage that have catastrophic failures.

I have 400 hard hours on my 2007 KTM 450exc and it has never left me stranded

?

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Old 06-12-2019, 08:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jalopyshoppe View Post
That sounds so much like Harley owners...

Interestingly, Harley is the benchmark that KTM just surpassed. I guess that sort of demonstrates the reality of most motorcycle owners.
OMG, I never thought about it that way! When the boomers are gone, and along with that the majority of Harley Davidson ownership, would KTM/ADV owners take their place?

Instead of HD emblemed jackets, we would have KLIM gear instead. And the "why don't you get a real bike?" would change connotation from air cooled Milwaukee twins to Austrian designed, India/China manufactured, LC#'s?

But seriously, congratulations to KTM! From their humble beginnings to now...I actually do hope they make it into the big-3! Once KTM starts manufacturing in "big-3" sales volume, I truly believe reliability and quality issues would become a thing of the past...given the necessity of a much more robust, continuously improving production system would have to be implemented. Can't wait to see what KTM offers in the next 10 years

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Fast forward 28 years, and KTM is building as many bikes in a week as it did in the whole year when Pierer took over. It just surpassed Harley-Davidson Inc. as the leading motorcycle maker outside of Asia. And Pierer is still in charge, with a fortune valued at more than $1 billion thanks to his success at KTM. “The quality at the time was so poor we were mocked,” he says. “But every crisis is also an opportunity.”
No matter what one's personal experience with KTM had been in the past, you got to respect their attitude and achievement!

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Old 06-12-2019, 08:58 PM   #24
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:59 PM   #25
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KTM dirt bikes don't count. They are indisputably some of the finest offroad machines. I've never been more blown away than after riding a KTM 300 enduro.
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:16 AM   #26
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That sounds so much like Harley owners...

Interestingly, Harley is the benchmark that KTM just surpassed. I guess that sort of demonstrates the reality of most motorcycle owners.
HD sells an image and some riders buy HD because of said image.

Just like some people buy BMW GS to cruise around after seeing Ewan do it.

KTMs can't really be put in the same category as their bikes don't really have any prestige or image behind it. Look at the 990 ADV. One of the ugliest bikes I've ever seen, yet I bought 2 because they were such good riders bikes. KTM is doing well because they are making bikes that riders want to ride, and they are damn good rides.
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:16 AM   #27
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HD sells an image and some riders buy HD because of said image.

Just like some people buy BMW GS to cruise around after seeing Ewan do it.

KTMs can't really be put in the same category as their bikes don't really have any prestige or image behind it. Look at the 990 ADV. One of the ugliest bikes I've ever seen, yet I bought 2 because they were such good riders bikes. KTM is doing well because they are making bikes that riders want to ride, and they are damn good rides.
KTM is taking a direct cue from HD and selling KTM EVERYTHING. Lunchboxes, pacifiers, underwear, etc. They're absolutely pushing the lifestyle brand.
KTM's arguably have prestige within KTM within circles of enthusiasts. Should they stay on this trajectory, they'll be as recognized as HD.
Arguably, there are KTM's that are similar to Harleys. You buy the bike, then fix the known issues *ahem 690 rockers, 990 water pump, etc* and then tell everyone how great it is. You gain an inflated sense of superiority over other brands because you're smart enough handle such a small design flaw, and you have an overall better bike than your competition. You can bond with other owners and delight in your smug cloud. Harley guys do it all the time. So do KTM guys.
I was riding the 1290 SA-S on Mines. While it's an overall fantastic bike, I had personal incompatibilities that made me not want to own one. A guy asked me how I liked it and I was honest about my dislikes. He was offended enough that I didn't like the bike that he called me an idiot and told me to fuck off. It was clear that I had no idea what a good motorcycle was.
I experienced a similar interaction with a BMW enthusiast while I was riding Surj's GS. I expressed my dislike for the telelever fork. He told me I was a dipshit, and that I'd change my tune when that design "saved my ass" in a turn.

Point is, lifestyle branding fosters loyalty and emotional attachment. It's Harley's lifelong strategy, and it's created loyal fans. It does require that your product have some elemental good qualities, but once you create that bond, you're likely to have a Stockholm syndrome style customer who will defend your faults until the end of time.
I'm waiting for the KTM tattoos.
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:51 AM   #28
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... It does require that your product have some elemental good qualities, but once you create that bond, you're likely to have a Stockholm syndrome style customer who will defend your faults until the end of time.
“elemental good qualities”



KTM 950 Super Enduro ... one of my emotional attachments to KTM.

kind of fun to think about each company’s iconic engines ...

sportster and big twin and LC4 and LC8 ...

was on a ride last weekend with two brand-new Husky 701s ...
both wound up on a truck with a failed KTM-made hydraulic clutch
slave cylinder ...

people around the campfire were saying the failed slave-cylinders were
the exact same part on multiple KTMs over the years, often
providing many miles of problem-free service ... suspect that sort
of Russian roulette failure of known parts contributes mightily
to brand-specific Stockholm Syndrome ...
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:52 AM   #29
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I was actually quite surprise to hear KTM surpassing HD. HD is (was) shockingly big. At least, far bigger than I ever thought. And now KTM is even larger.
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Old 06-13-2019, 09:35 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Jalopyshoppe View Post
KTM is taking a direct cue from HD and selling KTM EVERYTHING. Lunchboxes, pacifiers, underwear, etc. They're absolutely pushing the lifestyle brand.
KTM's arguably have prestige within KTM within circles of enthusiasts. Should they stay on this trajectory, they'll be as recognized as HD.
Arguably, there are KTM's that are similar to Harleys. You buy the bike, then fix the known issues *ahem 690 rockers, 990 water pump, etc* and then tell everyone how great it is. You gain an inflated sense of superiority over other brands because you're smart enough handle such a small design flaw, and you have an overall better bike than your competition. You can bond with other owners and delight in your smug cloud. Harley guys do it all the time. So do KTM guys.
I was riding the 1290 SA-S on Mines. While it's an overall fantastic bike, I had personal incompatibilities that made me not want to own one. A guy asked me how I liked it and I was honest about my dislikes. He was offended enough that I didn't like the bike that he called me an idiot and told me to fuck off. It was clear that I had no idea what a good motorcycle was.
I experienced a similar interaction with a BMW enthusiast while I was riding Surj's GS. I expressed my dislike for the telelever fork. He told me I was a dipshit, and that I'd change my tune when that design "saved my ass" in a turn.

Point is, lifestyle branding fosters loyalty and emotional attachment. It's Harley's lifelong strategy, and it's created loyal fans. It does require that your product have some elemental good qualities, but once you create that bond, you're likely to have a Stockholm syndrome style customer who will defend your faults until the end of time.
I'm waiting for the KTM tattoos.
Certainly an interesting take and I welcome the discussion.

IMO, I always thought all that KTM branded stuff was somewhat a joke, I mean a KTM toaster? If they are really trying to foster a brand image like HD, they are failing terribly because no one is buying that crap.

I've always found KTM owners are pretty unapologetic when it comes to faults with their bikes and are very vocal with failures.

I guess I never saw KTM as a brand that is trying to promote a certain lifestyle or is a brand that promotes brand superiority within its customers. If anything I always saw the exact opposite.

I will stand by my opinion that KTM builds great riders bikes. They are ugly as hell, but they ride great.
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