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Crash on Double Apex on 84 bearing West

S

SystemEvolve

New member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Location
Mountain View
Moto(s)
05 R1
Original Crash Landing Spot
OriginalPosition.jpg

Front at Crash
Front.jpg

Right Front at Crash
FrontRight.jpg

Left Front at Crash
LeftFront.jpg

The Embankment I cleared
Ontheembancment.jpg

The Ravine I went down
TheRavine.jpg

My Body Damage
IMG_4305.jpg

IMG_4307.jpg

Let the Work Begin
IMG_4326.jpg

IMG_4328.jpg


Crash Site on 84: heading West/South. Impact was right smack in the middle of the pic. above in which you cannot see was another turn.
84.jpg


Full Album: http://photobucket.com/R1Crash

What's up guys. I had a very unfortunate ride this past Sunday July 26th, 2009. I was riding the Canyons in the Bay Area on 84and I hit a double Apex and used my rear break which locked after excellerating to pass a car the pulled to the right and I went off the turn and hit an embankment. The bike smacked almost head on, and I flipped over the handle bars and down a ravine. Luckily I walked away with little personal injury but messed my bike up. And Pride. I loved my bike. So Much. Well, anyhow... I will be more than happy to answer questions.

Now begins my project of resurrecting my love. There is nothing mechanically wrong.

If you know where I can get parts:
1) Stay Assembly
2) Both Front Headlights
3) Upper Front Fairing
4) Instrument Cluster
5) One of the Rear Views..

systemevolve@gmail.com

I posted the same in my other forum "r1-forum" so if this is a double view for you. sorry.

-Scott

What I will add is my lesson learned. 2 things that could have prevented this was:
1) don't pass without knowing the clearing distance to resume normal driving in order to anticipate turns or other
2) use the front break and not the rear for emergency slow/stop. (I did know that BTW, just didn't apply it.) errr
 
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Dude.. as I was reading your post I was imagining how you got yourself into this mess.
Glad you made it out okay..

Here's the sequence of event as I see it in my minds eye.

*You passed a car at a good clip across a double yellow??
*You didn't look down the road where you were going to be..
*Realizing you were traveling too fast you applied the rear brake while leaning with your body.. not pressing on the bars or the pegs. Braking instead of accelerating or turning.
*You applied more front brake, rear got light, you freaked(cause it doesn't feel natural to have the rear hopping about), front tire dips into the gravel or dirt and down you went.


Close?
 
I hit a double Apex
Click to expand...

what is shown in your photo are two single, consecutive apexes. "Sweepers" if you will. I this particular area, based on arial photos, it looks blind.


A double apex is commonly know as a decreasing radius turn; think the fish hook in santa cruz.



decreaseradius.gif
 

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Ah, my inspiration for this: http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303612&highlight=mitt

Bummer, looks like you had a really nice bike, SystemEvolve. The R1, despite perhaps being a bit limp wristed down low, is not really a great bike for a newish rider. No offense, but your account of the incident makes it seem as if you may be relatively new to the sport. It might be a good time to consider whether motorcycling really is for you and how you will deal with judgement issues in the future. Some folks are honest and come to the conclusion that the near infinite temptation of Literbike Power is too much for them to resist and quit the sport or switch to something more reasonable.

In the end, better judgement can help prevent getting into situations where you have run out of skill before you have run out of corner. Adding skill is also a win, but it is harder in some ways and no real promise of safety or sanity, rather more skill can sometimes help you go much faster before eventually wadding in a big way.

One trick that some old farts have picked up is to save the real fucktardery for roads that they know really well, often having done a scouting run over the road first before getting stupid. Getting crazy on an unknown road, particularly in places with such limited visibility and lack of predictability as the SC mountains, can easily end in a dirtnap.

Karbon, perhaps your vernacular is different from mine, but in my book a decreasing radius corner is just that, while a double apex turn is one with two apexes (or two turns that run together in the same direction) with radii which could be equal or different without regard to the second being larger or smaller than the first. Different concepts.
 
Crash factors:

Attitude
Maybe you were focused more on going quick and having a good time that day? I know many riders who do the same thing, but with one major difference. The first consideration in their mind is safety. The difference between a fast street rider and a squid is usually experience. The fast street rider has the experience to know when it's OK to do something and when it's risky, and the judgment to make the right call.

Inadequate experience
Not sure how long you've been riding, but this incident definitely indicates a lack of experience. It is acceptable to be inexperienced. The real trick is learning to accept it. Once you accept that you don't have the experience to make the right call, you will realize that it is necessary for you to leave a little extra margin of safety in reserve in case you get into a situation where that experience would be necessary. In other words, slow the fuck down :)

High Speed / Unfamiliar road
It seems like you were surprised by the road, and generally that's a bad thing. Follow budbandit's advice for new roads. Also check out this link on the vanishing point. http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239734

Overtaking a car / Blind turns
I have no problem with overtaking cars! Not even over the double yellow. Sometimes it can even be safer than staying behind them. But you must remember to look ahead! Use your eyes, man. If you had been looking ahead, your brain would have said to you, "Oh look, there's a turn, I should compensate for that." Probably would have saved you! Blind turns are an added risk factor. An experienced rider might have decided not to make the pass if there was a blind turn coming up.

Mistake in braking
Survival reaction from a panic situation... these are very difficult to overcome. The best way to do it is to avoid having them in the first place, but you should always prepare for these situations. In this case, practicing quick stops with the front brake at varying speeds would have come in handy.

Target fixation
Another survival reaction from entering a panic situation. Looking at the danger spot instead of where you want to go. ALWAYS LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO!!! This also has to do with forethought and relaxation. If you are tense on the bike, it usually means you are taking risks. If you are taking risks, usually you haven't thought about them. If you think ahead, all these problems will be suddenly fixed. Think ahead; look ahead.

No faith / Failure to counter-steer
Related to the target fixation... if you're not looking where you want to go, you can't lean the bike to get there. If you were braking, you must have thought you couldn't make the turn. Maybe you couldn't, and if that's the case, then you're amazingly lucky for not getting injured. In most cases, though, riders simply don't have the confidence in their ability to turn the bike. This isn't always a good idea, but generally if you're coming into a turn too hot on the street, you're already fucked and the best thing you can do is lean and pray. My ass has been saved many times due to that method. It is definitely not right for every situation, since leaning further in this case could have caused you to crash later in the turn and sent you into the armco (the a stands for amptuation), or put you into the oncoming lane in the next turn. So sometimes it is better to just run off the road.

In conclusion... please slow down, think about the relative safety of your maneuvers before you execute them, look ahead, and practice your braking.
 
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luckett said:
A decreasing radius is not synonymous with double apex. A decreasing radius turn can have a single apex.

But you are correct, OPs pic is not double apex.
Click to expand...

And a 180 degree constant radius turn can have 2. T2 at thill for example...some guys make it a double apex..some don't
 
Glad your okay.

I saw the aftermath of your accident, I was riding by as they hauled your bike up.

I'm gonna join the band here and go with lack of judgement, experience,
patience.

Too fast for your lack of skills and conditions.

This accident should not have happened.

Take to heart the comments here and reevaluate your attitude
towards riding and seek help from some older vets here.
It's okay to admit that you don't have all the skills that you
would like to have.

I am being very restrained here, so I hope you do something with what you have been given.

And, La Honda Road on Sunday is not the best place to go balls out!

That particular spot was a bad place to pull that pass!

You are a very lucky young man!!

It could have been much worse.
 
Excellent advice above from RhythmRider. Here's another factor to think about...

From what I understand so far, you were going from top to bottom in the aerial photo you linked (thanks for that, BTW--aerial pics make it a lot easier to understand a crash). You passed as you approached the left-hander and went off the right side of the road at the center of the photo.

After passing as you approached the left-hand bend, you moved back into the right lane. This resulted in a path of travel you weren't expecting. You're swerving right to get back into your lane and at the same time the road is curving left. So you're now headed for the right shoulder and guardrail at an alarmingly sharp angle. What's required at this point to correct your trajectory is a hard steering input to go left--i.e., press on the left bar. Instead, you panicked and applied brakes.

IMHO, the second bend (right-hander) was a distraction you didn't anticipate, but the real cause of the crash was your response to the trajectory produced by the combination of the lane change and the curve.

FYI, here in SLO County we've had two fatal crashes that occurred that way in the past 5 years. Both passing at high speed going into left-handers, both ran off the right side of the road--one hitting a guardrail, the other a fence.

The skills that would have helped you (already mentioned by RR) are vision and steering. You needed to get your eyes off of the guardrail you were headed toward and onto the roadway you wanted to follow. And you needed to steer hard to keep the bike pointed where you wanted to go.
 
Very well done on the OP..

Very lucky to be unhurt for sure.

Using the back brake is something that can be hard to avoid in panic situations.. even minimal loss of your comfort zone can lead to it by accident.

Something I did on my race bikes to keep from doing it was adjust it out a bit so it does not engage until you get a good 1/2" into the motion. My brain as soon as I touched it would say SHIT WTF are you doing?? With the action not taking place until more depression I was able to get my foot off it without incident. It still functions just fine, but it is a more concerted effort to do so.

I agree with BB and being an old fart I often will do a sighting lap if you would before upping my pace. Now the pace is not crazy, but even a solid fun pace can cause a bad result due to various road conditions.

Good luck with the repairs and your future rides.

:smoking
 
You need more focus on building your skills incrementally and safely. I recommend formal training...perhaps a dirt course (Rich Oliver's Mystery School), or some introductory race track courses.

The added bonus of going fast in a controlled environment is that it often leads to mellowing out on the public road.
 
Ah yes the infamous catcher's mitt...standard rider errors. :deadhorse

Please read the Budbandit thread - that corner is known for precisely that crash, you're not the first and unfortunately unlikely to be the last. Glad you're ok, that impact must have been fierce.

I'd also suggest you get the bike checked out properly - I don't expect that there is truly "nothing mechanically wrong".
 
I like RhythmRider's post and it sure seems to summarize this crash (and many others too!) quite well.

I know this may be unpopular with some posters. However I think if you are that likely to want to use the rear brake in a panic then you may wish to just keep your foot totally off the pedal and keep the ball of your foot on the peg. Proper use of the rear brake in a sketchy situation - as opposed to a simple, straight line, no pressure stop at a light - is a fairly advanced skill.

I only apply the rear brake in a) slow speed situations and/or b) after applying the front brake steadily and the bike slowing.

The back brake gives you only a small percentage of extra stopping power yet is responsible (as it locks up easily) for, I'd say, quite a significant number of crashes.

Sorry to see your bike crashed but the fact you are OK is what matters.
 
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Thanks. I read every post and you are pretty much all correct in your assesments.

There were a multitude of factors. I am inexperienced and I will take it much easier in the hills from here on out.

As I passed the car, I did see the turn coming and realized I was too fast, that is why I used the break to slow down, but it locked and skided and I then got target fixation after I looked forward once the rear wheel started to skid. I saw where I was going to crash rather than getting into position and ready to make the turn. Although, If I had the experience, I am sure I could have made the turn without needing to slow down so much, but I automatically assumed I needed to be slower rather than just make the turn while going low.

I have been using the back break to "slow" at lights and other. I do believe I had the muscle memory of attributing "back break" to slow rather than front. I will start using the front by itself rather than in conjunction.

Thank You for your comments and words of wisdom. I DO want to be a GREAT rider and unfortunately I don't have the mentor. As stated, I have only been riding for a few months but I will look into going to a real school instead of this "learning the hard way" stuff :)

Good news is, I will be placing an order from a website to get most of the little screws and whatnot to put my bike together again. I have ordered everything else except for the Instrument Cluster which is prooving to be a pain.
 
@ evolve

Reading and practice, read and practice. Some great books in my order of preference for a new rider to learn, then move up are:

1. Twist of the Wrist II by Keith Codes - new rider friendly, safe, and simple
2. Total Control by Lee Parks - a few more advanced techniques - be careful!
3. Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch - getting even more advanced techniques - beware!
4. Performance Riding Techniques: The MotoGP Manual of Track Riding Skills by Andy Ibbott - Hold on for dear life!
 
+1 to 11B's post. I didn't have a mentor to teach me to ride either... those books basically taught me how to ride. However, there's some really good riders on this forum, including myself, who would be really happy to go out and ride with you.

Your post shows maturity and intelligence, so I have no doubt you'll end up being as good of a rider as you want to be, but it only takes one crash to screw that up. Just remember... when it comes to riding a motorcycle, being able to make the right decisions is every bit as important as being a smooth rider. Whether you're racing on the track, wading through traffic, or hitting your local back roads, you need to be thinking.

edit: I didn't mean to call myself a "really good rider" :laughing
just wanted to point out that I'd be glad to help!
 
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Between the Red Barn and La Honda westbound...
 
11B said:
@ evolve

Reading and practice, read and practice. Some great books in my order of preference for a new rider to learn, then move up are:

1. Twist of the Wrist II by Keith Codes - new rider friendly, safe, and simple
2. Total Control by Lee Parks - a few more advanced techniques - be careful!
3. Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch - getting even more advanced techniques - beware!
4. Performance Riding Techniques: The MotoGP Manual of Track Riding Skills by Andy Ibbott - Hold on for dear life!
Click to expand...

All great books. I would Add Twist I between 3 and 4.

If you are intent on keeping the R1, try to get some time at the track as well. Much safer place to become a better rider than the street.
 
RhythmRider said:
Crash factors:

Attitude
Maybe you were focused more on going quick and having a good time that day? I know many riders who do the same thing, but with one major difference. The first consideration in their mind is safety. The difference between a fast street rider and a squid is usually experience. The fast street rider has the experience to know when it's OK to do something and when it's risky, and the judgment to make the right call.

Inadequate experience
Not sure how long you've been riding, but this incident definitely indicates a lack of experience. It is acceptable to be inexperienced. The real trick is learning to accept it. Once you accept that you don't have the experience to make the right call, you will realize that it is necessary for you to leave a little extra margin of safety in reserve in case you get into a situation where that experience would be necessary. In other words, slow the fuck down :)

High Speed / Unfamiliar road
It seems like you were surprised by the road, and generally that's a bad thing. Follow budbandit's advice for new roads. Also check out this link on the vanishing point. http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239734

Overtaking a car / Blind turns
I have no problem with overtaking cars! Not even over the double yellow. Sometimes it can even be safer than staying behind them. But you must remember to look ahead! Use your eyes, man. If you had been looking ahead, your brain would have said to you, "Oh look, there's a turn, I should compensate for that." Probably would have saved you! Blind turns are an added risk factor. An experienced rider might have decided not to make the pass if there was a blind turn coming up.

Mistake in braking
Survival reaction from a panic situation... these are very difficult to overcome. The best way to do it is to avoid having them in the first place, but you should always prepare for these situations. In this case, practicing quick stops with the front brake at varying speeds would have come in handy.

Target fixation
Another survival reaction from entering a panic situation. Looking at the danger spot instead of where you want to go. ALWAYS LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO!!! This also has to do with forethought and relaxation. If you are tense on the bike, it usually means you are taking risks. If you are taking risks, usually you haven't thought about them. If you think ahead, all these problems will be suddenly fixed. Think ahead; look ahead.

No faith / Failure to counter-steer
Related to the target fixation... if you're not looking where you want to go, you can't lean the bike to get there. If you were braking, you must have thought you couldn't make the turn. Maybe you couldn't, and if that's the case, then you're amazingly lucky for not getting injured. In most cases, though, riders simply don't have the confidence in their ability to turn the bike. This isn't always a good idea, but generally if you're coming into a turn too hot on the street, you're already fucked and the best thing you can do is lean and pray. My ass has been saved many times due to that method. It is definitely not right for every situation, since leaning further in this case could have caused you to crash later in the turn and sent you into the armco (the a stands for amptuation), or put you into the oncoming lane in the next turn. So sometimes it is better to just run off the road.

In conclusion... please slow down, think about the relative safety of your maneuvers before you execute them, look ahead, and practice your braking.
Click to expand...

This is the only part of the entire thread that I have read. I was talking with RapidRobbie from here and he kept telling me that if i'm coming hot into a turn, just lean the bike over and keep going because these bikes are meant to handle all that you throw at it and it will keep you going.

Of course he was referring to my slow pace. haha :twofinger
Either way, your chances of crashing are slimmed down when you lean in and go for it (assuming no oncoming traffic) than just slamming the brakes and expecting a crash no matter what. Just my opinion.
 
RhythmRider said:
Crash factors:

Attitude
Maybe you were focused more on going quick and having a good time that day? I know many riders who do the same thing, but with one major difference. The first consideration in their mind is safety. The difference between a fast street rider and a squid is usually experience. The fast street rider has the experience to know when it's OK to do something and when it's risky, and the judgment to make the right call.

Inadequate experience
Not sure how long you've been riding, but this incident definitely indicates a lack of experience. It is acceptable to be inexperienced. The real trick is learning to accept it. Once you accept that you don't have the experience to make the right call, you will realize that it is necessary for you to leave a little extra margin of safety in reserve in case you get into a situation where that experience would be necessary. In other words, slow the fuck down :)

High Speed / Unfamiliar road
It seems like you were surprised by the road, and generally that's a bad thing. Follow budbandit's advice for new roads. Also check out this link on the vanishing point. http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239734

Overtaking a car / Blind turns
I have no problem with overtaking cars! Not even over the double yellow. Sometimes it can even be safer than staying behind them. But you must remember to look ahead! Use your eyes, man. If you had been looking ahead, your brain would have said to you, "Oh look, there's a turn, I should compensate for that." Probably would have saved you! Blind turns are an added risk factor. An experienced rider might have decided not to make the pass if there was a blind turn coming up.

Mistake in braking
Survival reaction from a panic situation... these are very difficult to overcome. The best way to do it is to avoid having them in the first place, but you should always prepare for these situations. In this case, practicing quick stops with the front brake at varying speeds would have come in handy.

Target fixation
Another survival reaction from entering a panic situation. Looking at the danger spot instead of where you want to go. ALWAYS LOOK WHERE YOU WANT TO GO!!! This also has to do with forethought and relaxation. If you are tense on the bike, it usually means you are taking risks. If you are taking risks, usually you haven't thought about them. If you think ahead, all these problems will be suddenly fixed. Think ahead; look ahead.

No faith / Failure to counter-steer
Related to the target fixation... if you're not looking where you want to go, you can't lean the bike to get there. If you were braking, you must have thought you couldn't make the turn. Maybe you couldn't, and if that's the case, then you're amazingly lucky for not getting injured. In most cases, though, riders simply don't have the confidence in their ability to turn the bike. This isn't always a good idea, but generally if you're coming into a turn too hot on the street, you're already fucked and the best thing you can do is lean and pray. My ass has been saved many times due to that method. It is definitely not right for every situation, since leaning further in this case could have caused you to crash later in the turn and sent you into the armco (the a stands for amptuation), or put you into the oncoming lane in the next turn. So sometimes it is better to just run off the road.

In conclusion... please slow down, think about the relative safety of your maneuvers before you execute them, look ahead, and practice your braking.
Click to expand...

Outstanding write up! Good Stuff Aaron.:thumbup
 
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