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Old 10-04-2010, 02:07 PM   #1
Gary J
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2up_on2wheels: 2-Up Ride Search Thread - Good closure .......

As that there was so much activity from so many BARFers in the earlier (spirited) thread, that appeared here in the "General" section, figured I'd post up some positive closure for anyone still interested.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The following responses appeared in a group ride thread where a lot of 2-Up miles were logged yesterday (Sunday) with the OP of that 2-Up inquiry thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2up_on2wheels View Post
That was a blast! Thanks for the invite. With special thanks to both Gary and Jed - (I feel a bit beat up)...- But it was soooooo worth it! Thanks for taking me out on some great roads!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryJ
Glad you enjoyed the chance to get out and experience some spirited riding on everything from challenging goat trail roads with sand and gravel chipseal , to the open twisty stuff, during the 2-Up opportunity yesterday Christina.

Great that you were able to meet a number of other local riders as part of yesterday's activities.

The odometer on my ZX-6R showed almost 160 (incident-free, on our bike) miles had been logged 2-Up, between the early morning pre-ride, and joining in on the actual group ride loop.

Wow, that 2-Up riding is pretty tough on the rear tire! Tire started the day in good enough shape that it looked to have a good 50% of its life left, and ended the day on its last leg.
The day made for a good, non-eventful, win-win closure on the 2-Up riding.
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Last edited by Gary J; 10-04-2010 at 04:22 PM..
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:03 PM   #2
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Has nobody here read the TOS??

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Old 10-04-2010, 03:08 PM   #3
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Yup...

I personally asked Gary to bring the great post in the other thread in a new version so folks could actually discuss the topic seriously.. I am deleting several posts here so it can be a serious take.

Please respect that... but I screwed up.. and it was not the post I was thinking...

Too late for me..
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:35 PM   #4
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:37 PM   #5
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Good enough.. like I said.. my bad..
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Old 10-04-2010, 03:59 PM   #6
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Yup...

like I said..



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Old 10-04-2010, 04:07 PM   #7
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Yup...

like I said..



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Old 10-04-2010, 04:17 PM   #8
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Good enough.. like I said.. my bad..
To keep Budman honest in his earlier request for previous thread content to be branched out ...... in the quest for constructive discussion of 2-Up passenger techniques ...... that meat from the earlier posting (and an update on it as per yesterday's riding) is reprinted below:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Key elements list for a "good passenger" for spirited 2-Up riding:
  • 1) Sits as far forward on passenger seat as will still allow for free side-to-side movement of rider

    2) Wraps arms around waist of rider, and braces palms of hands flat against back edge of gas tank (to brace their weight from going forward under hard braking)

    3) Reacts in alternating in letting their inside leg relax and swing inward on the side of the bike the rider is shifting to "hang off", while keeping tension on the inside of their outboard leg to help keep them in contact with the bike

    4) Switches arms (at least one) from bracing against the tank, over to wrapping/bracing inward against riders waist (to hang on from being pulled backwards) in advance of hard acceleration zones. Rider should alert passenger of impending hard acceleration bursts (as in when deliberately doing a wheelie out on track).

    5) Remains centered on seat and does not consciously shift weight either inside or outside while cornering. Remaining as "part of the bike" at all times, being the key.

*******************************************************

Before yesterday's 2-Up ride, I'd printed out a paper copy of the above bullet list and had a brief pre-ride pow-wow with Christina on these concepts/techniques.

Once out on the road it was found that a few of the items above didn't quite match up 100% with what this particular passenger was comfortable with from 2-Up riding in the past, with at least some other pilot(s).

In yesterday's riding a direct hit existed on number #1, #3 and #5, but #2 and #4 seemed to be something that we didn't fully come to agreement on.

For her style/comfort, holding on to some form of belt or hooks that would be on the pilot's riding gear, was the preferred approach. Unfortunately being in one-piece leathers, with no such anchor points, some improvization had to do.

Despite not having the ideal silent pilot/passenger connection (as per may own personal 2-Up rider's wish-list) as a result of the minor differences in those areas, the riding was only mildly impacted by having a passenger. Overall she was a very good (and most certainly brave!) passenger.

The only real noticeable impact being the normal 2-Up effect from the added weight, and its "squirm" effect on the rear tire. This being most noticeable when first settling into turns.

So that's some ideas on "good passengering", and some feedback on how things came together in real world 2-Up riding yesterday, FWIW.
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:24 PM   #9
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Gary, Bud, thanks for posting these up! Always good to see some real riding advice from the elder statesment
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:43 PM   #10
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Good to see you up at 4 corners Gary with your passenger...
After following her posts I was hoping she would land with a really good
rider to haul ass.....
Good MOJO on ya brother.
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Old 10-04-2010, 04:45 PM   #11
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Awesome information Gary! I was hoping you would start another thread with the do's and don'ts of passenger riding.

Christina...Good for you that you were able to ride with Gary!! I'm jealous!
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:14 PM   #12
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I'm used to riding with one hand around G [my pilot] and one hand holding on to the back of the bike. This way I feel secure both in acceleration and stops and I can see above/around him which makes going into turns easier - and I also know if there's anything coming up I need to brace for, etc.

I read your list when you first posted it and the last time out on 9 [on the R1100S] I tried #2 and just couldn't get it to work. At least not for the two of us. There's no way to get my arms around him and have my hands flat on the tank, even one at a time. I did notice that being closer made the turns feel a little tighter, but it was also a bit uncomfortable and I wasn't able to see around him to see the turns.

Do you have any suggestions on how I could maybe alter how I ride so it's a better fit between what you're describing and what's possible on the R1100S for us?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
Key elements list for a "good passenger" for spirited 2-Up riding:
  • 1) Sits as far forward on passenger seat as will still allow for free side-to-side movement of rider

    2) Wraps arms around waist of rider, and braces palms of hands flat against back edge of gas tank (to brace their weight from going forward under hard braking)

    3) Reacts in alternating in letting their inside leg relax and swing inward on the side of the bike the rider is shifting to "hang off", while keeping tension on the inside of their outboard leg to help keep them in contact with the bike

    4) Switches arms (at least one) from bracing against the tank, over to wrapping/bracing inward against riders waist (to hang on from being pulled backwards) in advance of hard acceleration zones. Rider should alert passenger of impending hard acceleration bursts (as in when deliberately doing a wheelie out on track).

    5) Remains centered on seat and does not consciously shift weight either inside or outside while cornering. Remaining as "part of the bike" at all times, being the key.
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Old 10-04-2010, 05:24 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marci View Post
...Good for you that you were able to ride with Gary
Actually Marci, you were a factor in that ride happening; in orchestrating the PM contact.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

One other key element of 2-Up riding worth bringing to this thread, that came to mind from yesterday's real world experience.

- Passenger Fatigue:

Being a "good passenger" for twisty road (or track) riding is a very physically demanding activity!

As a result, it's quite common for a passenger to reach a point where fatigue starts to creep in. It's very important that both passenger and rider recognize when that's happening ....... and adjust things accordingly!

On yesterday's ride, at about the 2/3rds of the way through the day point, riding the tough downhill run of Jamison Creek Road (with it's last 3 miles having recent chipseal gravel remnants) was the point where this red flag surface.

Thanks to having piloted a lot of fast track miles with passengers in the past, reading the subtle (unspoken) signs that my passenger is not all there (due to fatigue), has become a well developed sense.

Yesterday's signs were the feeling of excessive busy-ness on the part of the passenger. As the pilot, these subtle felt signs were detected in the form of small extra body position corrections and other pre, mid, and post-turn adjustments/movements. Movements where the passenger no longer felt like a solid "attachment to the bike", as a good-passenger normally does (and as Christina had done all day, prior to the onset of the fatigue).

As the pilot, the responsibility is to do the following:
  • 1) Be hyper-sensitive to detect the very early, and subtle signs of the onset of passenger fatigue

    2) Adjust (slow) the riding pace, braking forces, cornering forces, turning transitional rates, and acceleration level to retain the original safety cushion

As the passenger, the responsibility is to do the following:
  • 1) NOT let ego, pride, or peer-pressure prevent you from admitting (and telling the pilot immediately) as soon as you're starting to feel tired!

    2) Do so verbally, if at the next stop point

    3) Or: Do so by a rapid "tap-tap" on the rider's sides, with an arm, if awareness of this condition first appears during a segment of the ride

Yesterday the pace was chilled-out when the silent signals were detected by me as the pilot, on this Jamison Creek Road downhill run.

A good thing, as one of the key riders on the ride got bit in a very low speed crash just a few turns ahead of us, by the worst-case --- off-camber --- downhill --- chipseal sand dusted corner, on the way down this road.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:39 PM   #14
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These are just such great tips! Thank you for typing it all out, now I can just make future passengers read this!

Key elements list for a "good passenger" for spirited 2-Up riding:
1) Sits as far forward on passenger seat as will still allow for free side-to-side movement of rider


2) Wraps arms around waist of rider, and braces palms of hands flat against back edge of gas tank (to brace their weight from going forward under hard braking)


3) Reacts in alternating in letting their inside leg relax and swing inward on the side of the bike the rider is shifting to "hang off", while keeping tension on the inside of their outboard leg to help keep them in contact with the bike


4) Switches arms (at least one) from bracing against the tank, over to wrapping/bracing inward against riders waist (to hang on from being pulled backwards) in advance of hard acceleration zones. Rider should alert passenger of impending hard acceleration bursts (as in when deliberately doing a wheelie out on track).


5) Remains centered on seat and does not consciously shift weight either inside or outside while cornering. Remaining as "part of the bike" at all times, being the key.
These or the key elements I look for in a really "good passenger" for going at A-Group level pace, while providing 2-Up riding at the track.
The key elements for a "good passenger" for go-fast riding are:
1) Sits as far forward on passenger seat as will still allow for free side-to-side movement of rider
2) Wraps arms around waist of rider, and braces palms of hands flat against back edge of gas tank (to brace their weight from going forward under hard braking)
3) Reacts in alternating in letting their inside leg relax and swing inward on the side of the bike the rider is shifting to "hang off", while keeping tension on the inside of their outboard leg to help keep them in contact with the bike
4) Switches arms (at least one) from bracing against the tank, over to wrapping/bracing inward against riders waist (to hang on from being pulled backwards) in advance of hard acceleration zones. Rider should alert passenger of impending hard acceleration bursts (as in when deliberately doing a wheelie out on track).
5) Remains centered on seat and does not consciously shift weight either inside or outside while cornering. Remaining as "part of the bike" at all times, being the key.

-Passenger Fatigue:
Being a "good passenger" for twisty road (or track) riding is a very physically demanding activity! As a result, it's quite common for a passenger to reach a point where fatigue starts to creep in. It's very important that both passenger and rider recognize when that's happening ....... and adjust things accordingly!

As the passenger, the responsibility is to do the following:
1) NOT let ego, pride, or peer-pressure prevent you from admitting (and telling the pilot immediately) as soon as you're starting to feel tired!

2) Do so verbally, if at the next stop point

3) Or: Do so by a rapid "tap-tap" on the rider's sides, with an arm, if awareness of this condition first appears during a segment of the ride
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:00 PM   #15
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Thanks for your highly-experienced insight, Gary. I appreciate it
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