Raghu
New member
I took the car to the track (Thunderhill) for the first time last saturday with the club Z guys as part of their track school event. I have previously attended a 2 day motorcycle school at Thill and I am very familiar with the track layout & lines. What follows is an attempt to analyse and compare the experiences.
First, the equipment:
Motorcycle:
- 2001 Honda CBR600F4i with 10.5k miles. When I took it to Thill, it was completely stock except for PC3. I was using Pirelli Dragon Evos (sport touring tires) with about 2000 miles on them. Measured dyno #s at the rear wheel are at 38 ft-lbs of torque & 85 HP.
Car:
- 2002 Audi A4 1.8T quattro with 24.5k miles. Completely stock with Pirelli P6000 M+S tires with 24500 miles on them. Treads were almost near tread wear marker...For those not familiar with the car, it makes a claimed 163 ft-lbs of torque at 1950 RPM (and stays there in a flat line till 5.5k!) and 170 HP (I think at the crank) and weighs close to 3300 lbs.
Day:
It was a scorching 90+ day at Thill for the motorcycle school. The temps never went over 53 and it was *raining* at Thill for the car school.
I go to track:
- to improve my driving/riding skills
- to find the limits of my car/bike so that I know how far I can go *safely* in terms of handling (speed, cornering, braking)
- to go fast w/o worrying about cops
Learning
Both car & motorcycle are almost the same in this aspect. Club Z had instructors for every session for guys in the novice group. Similarly, Keigwins had singup sessions with instructors that I could use. The experience, however, is different.
With an instructor beside you in the car, the feedback & the resultant learning is instantaneous. He/She could tell me to brake more on the ensuing lap (for example - turn 2 to turn 3) or ask me to bring it in more closer or drift wider. With the bike, it takes an entire lap before we pull into the hot pits and the instructor had to remember how I did the whole lap. Also, I had to remember his feedback on the entire lap (keep to the inside on T2 & T3, don't be too tight on T9, drift wide out of T9 & keep it tight on T10, setup properly for T11's exit so that you can shoot out of T13 etc.).
Shifting: being smooth - In the car, with Drive by wire preventing heel & toe almost (3 seconds before the chip cuts out engine when brake & gas are applied simultaneously) shifting was a sequence of brake, downshift, get on the gas smoothly. So, the mechanism is almost similar to how I did it on the bike.
Learning the Limits:
The car scores here, no questions. I still haven't realised the limits of my leaning potential on the motorcycle (getting a knee down is just the beginning, it is not the realisation of how far I can lean) or my braking limits.
While I did learn to be smooth on the brakes & on while shifting on both vehicles, ABS in the car gives an indication of how much I am braking and I was almost constantly pushing it, while on the bike, I pushed it till I locked up the front wheel (in a braking exercise), but was always afraid of washing out. I took home the honors for the only 4WD drive car to spin on track when I tried carrying more speed into T10
Speed & control:
The motorcycle wins here. There's immediate feedback on where I am & how fast I am going without looking at the speedometer. In the car, acceleration is deceptive - I realised I was carrying more speed through T2 than in my motorcycle early in the session, but I *felt* the speed in the motorcycle in a way completely different. The well setup suspension on the motorcycle also helps against the softly sprung car (even though the 02' A4's stock suspension is the sports suspension of the B5 A4). Turn in is instantaneous on the motorcycle, while in the car, I had to predict & calculate when to turn to make it at the apex.
There's virtually no engine braking in the car, while the bike offered more engine braking, helping through T2 & T5. Going downhill from T5 to T5a (imagine a smaller version of the corkscrew in Laguna Seca), the motorcyle was more planted than the car, which tried all its might to break away in the downhill, off camber T5a.
I could also pick multiple lines on the motorcycle where as in the car, there is one good line. If I blow it, the tires squeal and let me know that I am not really going fast, just drifting sideways...
Acceleration:
Motorcycle wins - I saw upwards of 110 in the front straightway & going into T1 where as in the car, I never went over 90. Despite peak torque available at 1950 RPM on the A4, it was a no contest against the motorcycle...
Safety:
Car wins. I pushed & pushed until I spun the car braking deep into the turn. I then restarted the car, got back on the track & took the slow line to the hot pits to confirm there is no mud & then got back on the track for another lap! On a motorcycle, that would've finished my day. I could never think of pushing so much on the motorcycle at one shot.
However, the motorcycle track school was conducted in good sunlight, while the car event was in rain. The fact that I was still carrying more speed through some corners indicate that I might actually be faster on the car than the motorcycle. I am not sure though, since the increased acceleration of the motorcycle lets me get out of corners much more faster - an important factor to going faster. I will try to time myself next time...
Fun:
Lastly, we come to this. Here again, the motorcycle wins. A 4 wheel drift in rain is fun, but it is no match to the feeling of dragging one's knee through a corner, with the motorcycle tracking through it's line, leisurely hanging off in T2 with the wind aiding the feeling of speed and perception of control. It doesn't take a lot of speed to have fun on the motorcycle, where as in the car, I felt disconnected. Car guys on track didn't get it - they were thrilled to go fast through the turns. The experience of rush on a motorcycle booming (ok, it was a stock F4i - let's call it sewing through) through a corner is more exhilarating. The way the motorcycle drifts on acceleration is felt more at a primal level than in a car...
I will continue to track both. The car is getting new legs & shoes. I haven't decided on 17" or 18" yet...(any guys who are into tracking a car on this board?) After a few more track days, I will be changing the suspension, rechip to increase torque & HP, and may add an exhaust (I am thinking in about 2 years). Bike already has a race exhaust on it and will be getting a Penske rear shock soon. Let's see how it goes after that...
Last call: For sheer fun, I will take the motorcycle anyday (-:
First, the equipment:
Motorcycle:
- 2001 Honda CBR600F4i with 10.5k miles. When I took it to Thill, it was completely stock except for PC3. I was using Pirelli Dragon Evos (sport touring tires) with about 2000 miles on them. Measured dyno #s at the rear wheel are at 38 ft-lbs of torque & 85 HP.
Car:
- 2002 Audi A4 1.8T quattro with 24.5k miles. Completely stock with Pirelli P6000 M+S tires with 24500 miles on them. Treads were almost near tread wear marker...For those not familiar with the car, it makes a claimed 163 ft-lbs of torque at 1950 RPM (and stays there in a flat line till 5.5k!) and 170 HP (I think at the crank) and weighs close to 3300 lbs.
Day:
It was a scorching 90+ day at Thill for the motorcycle school. The temps never went over 53 and it was *raining* at Thill for the car school.
I go to track:
- to improve my driving/riding skills
- to find the limits of my car/bike so that I know how far I can go *safely* in terms of handling (speed, cornering, braking)
- to go fast w/o worrying about cops
Learning
Both car & motorcycle are almost the same in this aspect. Club Z had instructors for every session for guys in the novice group. Similarly, Keigwins had singup sessions with instructors that I could use. The experience, however, is different.
With an instructor beside you in the car, the feedback & the resultant learning is instantaneous. He/She could tell me to brake more on the ensuing lap (for example - turn 2 to turn 3) or ask me to bring it in more closer or drift wider. With the bike, it takes an entire lap before we pull into the hot pits and the instructor had to remember how I did the whole lap. Also, I had to remember his feedback on the entire lap (keep to the inside on T2 & T3, don't be too tight on T9, drift wide out of T9 & keep it tight on T10, setup properly for T11's exit so that you can shoot out of T13 etc.).
Shifting: being smooth - In the car, with Drive by wire preventing heel & toe almost (3 seconds before the chip cuts out engine when brake & gas are applied simultaneously) shifting was a sequence of brake, downshift, get on the gas smoothly. So, the mechanism is almost similar to how I did it on the bike.
Learning the Limits:
The car scores here, no questions. I still haven't realised the limits of my leaning potential on the motorcycle (getting a knee down is just the beginning, it is not the realisation of how far I can lean) or my braking limits.
While I did learn to be smooth on the brakes & on while shifting on both vehicles, ABS in the car gives an indication of how much I am braking and I was almost constantly pushing it, while on the bike, I pushed it till I locked up the front wheel (in a braking exercise), but was always afraid of washing out. I took home the honors for the only 4WD drive car to spin on track when I tried carrying more speed into T10
Speed & control:
The motorcycle wins here. There's immediate feedback on where I am & how fast I am going without looking at the speedometer. In the car, acceleration is deceptive - I realised I was carrying more speed through T2 than in my motorcycle early in the session, but I *felt* the speed in the motorcycle in a way completely different. The well setup suspension on the motorcycle also helps against the softly sprung car (even though the 02' A4's stock suspension is the sports suspension of the B5 A4). Turn in is instantaneous on the motorcycle, while in the car, I had to predict & calculate when to turn to make it at the apex.
There's virtually no engine braking in the car, while the bike offered more engine braking, helping through T2 & T5. Going downhill from T5 to T5a (imagine a smaller version of the corkscrew in Laguna Seca), the motorcyle was more planted than the car, which tried all its might to break away in the downhill, off camber T5a.
I could also pick multiple lines on the motorcycle where as in the car, there is one good line. If I blow it, the tires squeal and let me know that I am not really going fast, just drifting sideways...
Acceleration:
Motorcycle wins - I saw upwards of 110 in the front straightway & going into T1 where as in the car, I never went over 90. Despite peak torque available at 1950 RPM on the A4, it was a no contest against the motorcycle...
Safety:
Car wins. I pushed & pushed until I spun the car braking deep into the turn. I then restarted the car, got back on the track & took the slow line to the hot pits to confirm there is no mud & then got back on the track for another lap! On a motorcycle, that would've finished my day. I could never think of pushing so much on the motorcycle at one shot.
However, the motorcycle track school was conducted in good sunlight, while the car event was in rain. The fact that I was still carrying more speed through some corners indicate that I might actually be faster on the car than the motorcycle. I am not sure though, since the increased acceleration of the motorcycle lets me get out of corners much more faster - an important factor to going faster. I will try to time myself next time...
Fun:
Lastly, we come to this. Here again, the motorcycle wins. A 4 wheel drift in rain is fun, but it is no match to the feeling of dragging one's knee through a corner, with the motorcycle tracking through it's line, leisurely hanging off in T2 with the wind aiding the feeling of speed and perception of control. It doesn't take a lot of speed to have fun on the motorcycle, where as in the car, I felt disconnected. Car guys on track didn't get it - they were thrilled to go fast through the turns. The experience of rush on a motorcycle booming (ok, it was a stock F4i - let's call it sewing through) through a corner is more exhilarating. The way the motorcycle drifts on acceleration is felt more at a primal level than in a car...
I will continue to track both. The car is getting new legs & shoes. I haven't decided on 17" or 18" yet...(any guys who are into tracking a car on this board?) After a few more track days, I will be changing the suspension, rechip to increase torque & HP, and may add an exhaust (I am thinking in about 2 years). Bike already has a race exhaust on it and will be getting a Penske rear shock soon. Let's see how it goes after that...
Last call: For sheer fun, I will take the motorcycle anyday (-:
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