Downed my bike turning on a hill

[travisobvs]

Hey guys -

I dropped my bike on Broadway at Taylor on Friday night and it feels terrible. I attached some pictures - It's easy for me to blame the bike and the situation but I want to know how I could prevent it from happening again.

I am new to the city and check my phone before I go anywhere to go home from basically anywhere I am not familiar with. This time I was headed home from North beach headed to the Pan Handle and Google suggested I take Broadway. After an obvious overshoot I ended up on Taylor street and made it to Broadway and did not know that the tunnel had already started and this was a dead end, so I took a left on Broadway.

For those that don't know : Broadway here has a cement divider at the top of a very steep hill here, life stairs steep. I knew I was in trouble as I started to climb and decided that I would negotiate a you turn quickly to turn around. About 3/4 into the turn I felt the bike start to fall and I could not keep it up and let it drop, luckily it didn't slide down the hill

I slid a couple feet, got up and turned off the bike. I can't lift it alone and luckily there were 2 other guys at the top of the hill (randomly) to help me lift it up and point it forward. I jumped back on and started it up and just went on my way because it was too steep to even pause at this point. It just all happened VERY quickly.

There we a couple factors here -

The turn and grade of the hill - I look back at this and think what else I could have done? Fast turn? backing up?

The weight of my bike - This is the second time I have had trouble with this bike. I started riding a BMW r850r that weighs (according to this doc) 520lb which is only 120 lbs more than my old 400cc honda. Is there something I should know about having a bigger bike?

My Boots - I just started wearing new Wolverine 1000 mile boots with a leather bottom. I noticed there is not as much grip and fear that maybe this could have played a part in it.

The bike turned out... okay. It runs and it's fine but its a boxer engine and it's got obvious marks on the left side engine, break lever and mirror - really hurts to see it because it reminds me it's been dropped now.

Let me know what you think and stay safe out there!


Pictures : http://imgur.com/a/tHi1K

tl;dr - Dropped my bike making a u-turn on a deadend hill and wondering what else I should have done.
T

 

[Archimedes]

On really steep stuff, I don't u turn. I stop, back it in perpendicular to the road and then make the left turn back down.

 

[dmaxAl]

Don't worry about the bike - those are battle scars

Low speed / off camber u turns can be tricky. Especially on a hill. Don't worry about backing up or even getting off the bike to push it around.

Couple of things - brake effectiveness is in reverse when backing up - it's common for the front wheel to slide when you are on a slope (or backing out of a trailer etc).

So you might need to use the rear brake to control moving the bike backwards.. plan for this.. In your pic, if one were to stop, then back to the right, then your left foot is now downhill, and therefore you need to extend it more to balance the bike.. not good.
But if you back up towards the left curb, you can now cover the rear brake with your right foot and use the left for balance (which is now on the uphill side and therefore easier to balance the bike on a steep slope).

g'luck!

<edit> - alternatively buy a drz and attack hills with gusto and fuck physics
[youtube]fYu7DQn5vAI[/youtube]

al.

 

[DucatiHoney]

Since this is crash analysis, I'll try to stick to what you might have done to prevent the crash.

1. You said that you've had trouble with the bike before...Slow speed stuff can be challenging in particular with a larger bike, so I would avoid taking routes that might call for that. (Sounds like you didn't know what was in store for you since you're new to the city though...) As soon as you see a steep hill, you might just pull off immediately and take another street.
2. Many people on here say that one shouldn't have a bike that they can't lift alone. I don't subscribe to that, but it's not completely worthless advice. If you're in the unfortunate habit of dropping your ride, might be better to look into something that can be managed independently. That could have helped avoid the crash--lighter bikes are generally easier to turn too.
3. Since you were already on the hill and sort of stuck, I think you might have considered a different way of getting the bike pointed in the right direction. If you need to get off and maneuver that thing around with the motor off for 10 minutes, do it. Given #1 & #2 above, I would have taken that tack to avoid the drop. People might laugh as you do it, but it's better than dumping the bike and finding yourself in a situation where you absolutely need assistance.

 

[smm]

To add to dmaxAl's point...

If you need to do a 3-point turn and you have to back down to the right you can kill the engine with the bike in first and then use the clutch as a rear brake.

 

[danate]

A few questions for you:

How long have you been riding?

How much have you practiced or trained for low speed maneuvers?

Making a U-turn on an incline can be tough, but it is very doable and often is the safest option. If you have trouble lifting your bike up, trying to walk a 3-point turn back on a steep incline is going to prove difficult since you have to make sure you keep the bikes center of gravity from tipping downhill. Straight back is probably the only real option.

To prevent this crash if you knew you weren't sure you could make the u-turn. You should have really just stopped while still facing uphill and then got off and walked the bike straight back down using the clutch as a brake to assist you. I have had to do this before when I was starting out.

To get better at U-turns, go take the Alameda Sheriff's motor course. No matter what level you are, you will come out of it better at low speed maneuvers. They even practice u-turns on hills. https://www.sheriffacademy.com/class.php?id=103

As for your bike, it may seem heavy to you, but it is extremely nimble and quick at turning. I can do tighter u-turns and circles on my R1200RT than on any other bike I own or have owned. Just watch some police motor competition videos if you don't believe me.

Don't feel bad. You are not hurt and your bike will be ok. That's a good outcome. Everyone has had similar ones at one point. I once got stranded doing a similar thing as you sideways and stopped on a steep driveway with my bike leaning uphill to the right (if it went left it would have gone down) and no room to go forward. I couldn't get off the bike and thankfully had a friend with me who came and rescued me. Embarrassing, yes, however after that I went and took that Sheriff's course and practiced u-turns until my arms fell off and now I feel confident when I need to turn around.

 

[clutchslip]

If you are going to be riding in the city, a lot, I would change the boots. Imagine those smooth boot soles on wet trolley tracks and paint.

I can see losing it in a u-turn on a steep hill, especially with a heavier bike. Don't turn sharply. Break the turn into segments. First turn perpendicular to the hill, next point the front wheel down the hill, making as wide a turn as possible, and DON'T lean. Then if things are stable, let the bike follow the front down the hill.

I would ride over the sidewalk if necessary to widen my turn. Hell, it's SF, nothing is sacred as far as using the WHOLE street goes. (Look up GOTFS, on barf, for many yuks).

 

[BillSmith]

Good advice above. Important not just because riding in The City could require the skill, but parking will definitely leave you in need to perform better on inclines.

I can add that if you are a snow skier, apply steep slope skill set to your riding . Archimedes referred to backing after getting parallel. Works on the black diamond slopes equally as well.

And the boots are an absolute. Leather slides, especially when wet. Rubber tires, rubber soles. (not the Beatles album)

 

[latindane]

Search Capt. Crash's youtube videos for U-turn on an incline. He has some good pointers (after the more straightforward "just don't").

For what it's worth, I would have done what the first replier mentioned. Back up with the handlebars pointed to the right until you are perpendicular to the incline, and then off you go (somebody else also mentioned a 3-point turn, and I guess they meant this).

Edit: also.response #2, who makes a good point of the possibility of the front slipping on the brake if traction is low. I guess the clutch is your friend then.

 

[kongjie]

The first time (actually, the only time) I did a U-turn on a decently steep hill, I almost went down. I had taken a wrong turn, decided to turn around, and simply hadn't anticipated that it would be a problem. Boy was I wrong.

So just avoid doing it. But if you're determined, find a place to practice. Don't worry about your bike's scars. You've learned a relatively painless lesson.

 

[MCSFTGUY]

You want to know what the final test is for those who wish to ride motors at SFPD... a U-turn on a steep hill like this one.... And, this U-turn is/was also part of the quarterly training.

U-turns in this environment require an ultra-high amount of low speed clutch and throttle experience.... If you don't have this experience, don't make a U-turn on a hill like this.... much easier to fail than to succeed.

As for this being a SFPD Motor Test... this is what a couple of old retired motors told me, so it may not be the case today... but this "final" test gives you an idea of the difficulty.

 

[afm199]

On really steep stuff, I don't u turn. I stop, back it in perpendicular to the road and then make the left turn back down.

This. Don't try making turns on hills that steep. It seldom ends well. Ride the bike to the right side and stop. Using the hand brake, let it slowly back down hill while turning the bars to the left. It will tip to the left and be supported by your right foot. Walk it back ( if you do this at a slight downhill angle, it's easy. When far enough back. Turn the bars slightly to the right and coast the turn.

 

[Mudge]

On really steep stuff, I don't u turn. I stop, back it in perpendicular to the road and then make the left turn back down.

Yes, once I heard big hill and U-turn that was where I was ready to say, don't do it. If you are somehow practiced and ultra confident because you live in SF or something - sure. But if you don't know that you can do it you are giving yourself a number of issues that are difficult to negotiate all at once, plus honestly, in SF I can in no way trust the cars that may come piling around a corner at 15-30 MPH to see me in time while I am walking my bike through a U-Turn.

I would vote for not doing it, if you are doing it at all, use your leg power to walk through it and be assured that you have strong legs - or just don't.

 

[jdan007]

+1 just roll up perpendicular to the curb, back it up, and ride back down if not confident of making the turn on the incline. sf hills take a little getting used to but after some practice you'll be making u-turns in no time without a problem incline or not

 

[travisobvs]

First of all thanks for all the feedback guys - Sorry it took me so long to reply, work and life are busy! I got some great info and generally feel much better about the situation.

Thanks to dmaxAl the DRZ video made me laugh out loud.

So to recap on the turn : I made I was going up the right side of the hill and turned left so that my left foot was down the hill and that is the direction the bike dropped, part of me thinks if I backed it up to the "perpendicular to the incline" method I might have had similar problems but I would have been much more prepared for the weight. I am about to watch the videos posted now.

All of the feedback is great - I am comfortable with the bike still but aware of it's weight more and will be using in the advice / class that Danate suggested.

"MCSFTGUY" made me feel much better with this fact : "You want to know what the final test is for those who wish to ride motors at SFPD... a U-turn on a steep hill like this one.... And, this U-turn is/was also part of the quarterly training. "

Also looks like I need to buy some Redwing boots...

 

[Enchanter]

Let's bring this back to the analysis of the crash, the events leading up to the crash, and the technique(s) to practice. While the post crash information, and the expert opinion, can be useful, it doesn't fit with the theme of this forum.

 

[rosemont83]

Went through the thread and didn't notice anyone mention this which is surprising...
When you are making a U-turn on an incline, meaning going up the incline and turning to go back down the incline, you MUST lean into the incline while turning. Same thing with going down and making a U-turn to go up.

It's physics. If you don't, you won't have enough countering force to keep you upright and gravity will push your bike down the hill and on top of you.
I drew you a diagram to help you visualize, haven't been known to be the best artist but hope it helps: