Safety Features on New Motorcycles

[Aluisious]

With more consideration going faster than skill is also poor judgement...so it's almost all just poor judgement.

 

[DataDan]

In my own experience of being around others and my own misadventures, most crashes boil down to people either going too fast for their skill, or so fast that skill was irrelevant when something happened, which is just poor judgement.

There is no red line on the speedo that says "LIMIT OF SKILL. DO NOT EXCEED!"

We discover it only in hindsight.

 

[Aluisious]

There is no red line on the speedo that says "LIMIT OF SKILL. DO NOT EXCEED!"

We discover it only in hindsight.

But with the throttle screwed on there is only the barest margin, and nor room at all for mistakes. It has to be done right…and that’s when the strange music starts, when you stretch your luck so far that fear becomes exhilaration and vibrates along your arms. You can barely see at a hundred; the tears blow back so fast that they vaporize before they get to your ears. The only sounds are wind a dull roar floating back from the mufflers. You watch the white line and try to lean with it…huwling through a turn to the right, then to the left and down the long hill to Pacifica…letting off now, watching for cops, but only until the next dark stretch and another few seconds on the edge…

The Edge…There is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are ones who have gone over. The others–the living–are those who who pushed their control as far as they felt they could handle it, and then pulled back, or slowed down, or did whatever they had to when it came time to choose between Now and Later.”

Of course there is no red line. That's why they call it judgement.

 

[flying_hun]

Lou, I don't disagree at all with your assertion that lack of training/experience is a huge contributor to motorcycle crashes. What I don't understand, however, is the view that rider training and technological aids are mutually exclusive.

This. Like the other codgers posting in this thread, I've been riding the street a very long time, and rode the dirt for nine years before that. I believe that skill and judgment are a rider's first line of defense. Where we part ways is that many seem to believe that improvements in rider aids are at best useless, and at worst a very bad thing. Me, I'm looking at any edge I can get that allows me to keep riding the way I like to ride. ABS and TC are just extensions of better tires, brakes and suspension. They don't replace skill and judgment, but they give you the potential for more margin when you need it.

 

[Aluisious]

ABS is an idea for bikes I like. My street crashes have all been brake related. Traction control...Jesus, just calm down on the road. I have never wanted or needed traction control in 50k miles of riding on crappy roads and in a lot of bad weather. Brakes are so much more powerful and faster to act than any engine, and you usually need them the most when you aren't expecting it.

To need traction control implies making constantly poor decisions, instead of one mistake with brakes.

 

[Spec-ECU]

To need traction control implies making constantly poor decisions, instead of one mistake with brakes.

I'm not a fan of TC myself (not that I'd turn down a bike that comes with one), but that's such a blanket statement. Like Kurt wrote, rider aids are not catch-alls - they're just other tools available to the rider.

 

[DataDan]

To clear up some misconceptions about Hurt's finding:

• 74% of the crashes he investigated were multiple-vehicle (because the study area was the City of Los Angeles, it would have fewer single-vehicle crashes than California overall).
  
  
• In 65% of the multiple-vehicle crashes or 48% of all crashes, the other vehicle violated the motorcyclist's right of way .
  
  
• "The most frequent accident configuration is the motorcycle proceeding straight and the automobile makes a left turn (most usually in front of the oncoming motorcycle). This configuration appear in 26.7% of all the accidents, or 33.4% of the multiple-vehicle collisions."

That's not much different than the Bay Area fatality data in my earlier post.

One thing that has changed a lot is rider age. Median age in Hurt's crashes was 25, for fatalities 26. Median age in 2011 California crashes was 36, for fatalities 41.

 

[mean dad]

ABS is an idea for bikes I like. My street crashes have all been brake related. Traction control...Jesus, just calm down on the road. I have never wanted or needed traction control in 50k miles of riding on crappy roads and in a lot of bad weather. Brakes are so much more powerful and faster to act than any engine, and you usually need them the most when you aren't expecting it.

To need traction control implies making constantly poor decisions, instead of one mistake with brakes.

You've never had the ass end step out under throttle, when turning a corner in the rain?
Or from going across a painted crosswalk line?
Or a manhole cover?
Or a greasy spot in the road?

I have, lots of times. Never crashed from it, but thousands have.

 

[Aluisious]

I'm not a fan of TC myself (not that I'd turn down a bike that comes with one), but that's such a blanket statement. Like Kurt wrote, rider aids are not catch-alls - they're just other tools available to the rider.

Yes, but I think it's fair to argue tc is much more of a performance aide than a safety aide. My opinion is that reasonable street riding should not approach that level of performance anyway.

 

[Aluisious]

You've never had the ass end step out under throttle, when turning a corner in the rain?
Or from going across a painted crosswalk line?
Or a manhole cover?
Or a greasy spot in the road?

I have, lots of times. Never crashed from it, but thousands have.

We've all had the wiggle, but you just don't crash from that if everything else is held together. It's self correcting. To totally spin up a tire going over that stuff is simple poor judgement of conditions.

If street riding ever required tc, riding in dirt would be impossible.

If you hit something so big and so slick that you'd need tc, it wouldn't help anyway. You're going to lose both wheels regardless of control inputs.

 

[louemc]

You've never had the ass end step out under throttle, when turning a corner in the rain?
Or from going across a painted crosswalk line?
Or a manhole cover?
Or a greasy spot in the road?

I have, lots of times. Never crashed from it, but thousands have.

Ass stepping out, under throttle is a main way of turning a dirt bike.

Easily seen as flat trackers on the Mile, turn that corner in the blue groove or in the marbles, at 100 mph.

The thousands (or whatever real number) that crash, no matter from which tire, at which scenario, are riders that didn't care to learn how to control their bike, and...as such never learned how to recover, when it is required.

Bottom line...learn it, before you need it. Too late, doesn't cut it.

 

[mean dad]

Why are you riding with a Scott's on your bike, Lou? Ain't got enough skills to keep the front end from wigglin?

Of course not. You learned long ago that a steering dampener is a Good Thing To Have, even if you're the self-proclaimed bestest rider in the westest. To pretend that TC or ABS aren't in the same league is stupid.

We've all had the wiggle, but you just don't crash from that if everything else is held together. It's self correcting. To totally spin up a tire going over that stuff is simple poor judgement of conditions.

If street riding ever required tc, riding in dirt would be impossible.

If you hit something so big and so slick that you'd need tc, it wouldn't help anyway. You're going to lose both wheels regardless of control inputs.

You already know that every rider everywhere is going to lose both wheels at once? No one ever loses the rear wheel only and low-sides from it? Man, stupid engineers are stupid, huh?

 

[Kornholio]

Why are you riding with a Scott's on your bike, Lou? Ain't got enough skills to keep the front end from wigglin?

Of course not. You learned long ago that a steering dampener is a Good Thing To Have, even if you're the self-proclaimed bestest rider in the westest. To pretend that TC or ABS aren't in the same league is stupid.

*damper

 

[ilikefood]

You've never had the ass end step out under throttle, when turning a corner in the rain?
Or from going across a painted crosswalk line?
Or a manhole cover?
Or a greasy spot in the road?

I have, lots of times. Never crashed from it, but thousands have.

Hmm... just think about it - how exactly would any of these situations happen without a fundamentally bad decision by the rider?

If you're turning across a painted crosswalk line in the rain, don't open the throttle so much. If you're turning across a manhole cover in the rain, don't open the throttle so much. If you're turning across a greasy spot in the road, don't open the throttle so much.

I'm not opposed to traction control, but all these scenarios can be easily prevented without traction control, if you're simply paying attention. In that sense, it's true that traction control isn't really a safety feature, but a tool that can save the ass of someone riding like an idiot. In other words, if you're paying attention and making good decisions, you don't need traction control.

On the track it's a different story. There TC makes perfect sense, because races are won by those who can get on the power earlier without crashing. But that is explicitly NOT what you should be doing on the street.

 

[mean dad]

Yes, because every rider everywhere already has a decade of experience built in to their brain. It comes with the new bike owner's manual. No one ever makes a mistake on their first bike.

 

[ilikefood]

Just in case someone read the article closely enough to pick up this bit of nonsense (first paragraph):

states without helmet laws showed ten times more fatalities than those that mandated helmet use when riding a bike​

That isn't even remotely accurate.

It was linked to another article from Wall St. Cheat Sheet, which said the same thing:

States that do not require motorcycle riders to wear helmets had 10 times more fatalities than those with a universal helmet law, the NHTSA data showed.​

But the source, a NHTSA press release, makes a much different statement:

Ten times as many riders died not wearing a helmet in states without a universal helmet law than in states with such laws.​

In 2012, states without an all-rider helmet law had 57% more deaths than helmet-law states. But they also had 49% more motorcycles than helmet-law states.

Wow, that's really awful journalism. Someone read the NHTSA quote, didn't understand it at all, and completely changed its meaning when he re-wrote it. Someone illiterate in math and statistics shouldn't be a journalist, just as someone illiterate shouldn't be a journalist.

 

[ilikefood]

Yes, because every rider everywhere already has a decade of experience built in to their brain. It comes with the new bike owner's manual. No one ever makes a mistake on their first bike.

A new rider should avoid situations that are more dangerous, like riding in the rain, and opening the throttle enough to make the rear slide out in any situation. Trying to save people from the consequences of their own stupidity is the wrong approach in anything.

 

[mean dad]

*dampner

Both spellings are correct, Cincinnatus.
The device dampens vibrations, ergo it is a dampener.

However, I'm going to start calling it a stabilizer from now on.

 

[mean dad]

A new rider should avoid situations that are more dangerous, like riding in the rain, and opening the throttle enough to make the rear slide out in any situation. Trying to save people from the consequences of their own stupidity is the wrong approach in anything.

Who the fuck knows what's too much throttle until they find out??? I mean, I know when I ride, there's never ever any oil spots in the road, or that slick area in the middle of the lane, or morning dew on painted lines...but I guess new riders shouldn't ride on public roads with other cars and busses and trucks that drop coolant and fluids.

You are seriously arguing that no one should have TC except experienced riders and racers, and it makes me laugh

 

[Aluisious]

Why are you riding with a Scott's on your bike, Lou? Ain't got enough skills to keep the front end from wigglin?

Of course not. You learned long ago that a steering dampener is a Good Thing To Have, even if you're the self-proclaimed bestest rider in the westest. To pretend that TC or ABS aren't in the same league is stupid.




You already know that every rider everywhere is going to lose both wheels at once? No one ever loses the rear wheel only and low-sides from it? Man, stupid engineers are stupid, huh?

If I can pull off years riding through mountains and wet cities anyone can. I can sayit confidently because I am not the best rider in the world by a long shot.