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Secret motorcycle industry panel looks for ways to reverse sagging sales

Even sending them to the CMSP is a little hit or miss, cause sometimes the instructors are assholes, especially towards women.... as if they don't already know that.

Reply: I taught MSF for 13 years in IL, and CMSP for 1 year in CA. Of the scores of instructors/coaches in IL I would rate 1 as an a-hole and he is long since gone. I would rate 0 instructor/coaches as a-holes in CMSP. How many years have you taught in either program? What is your direct experience?


Also to those who claim the current generations are weak, I'd say, well, they're going into a terrible economy...

Reply: this was thought provoking, thank you.


When it comes to women getting into motorcycling, there's basically zero support system for them....They show up to a dealership, get blown off by some jerkwad, show up to CMSP, get blown off by an instructor, and they write motorcycles off entirely.

Reply: I used to work in a multi-line m/c dealership and saw that happen 0 times.


Gear choices are impossible given the variety of women's shapes, ... and especially bad for women.

Reply: don't agree with this at all. What about Gear Chic, Scorpion, Dainese, Alpinestars, Olympia, Klim, RoadGear (RIP) et al?


If I were in the industry, here's how I'd turn it around:

Reply: all these suggestions have merit.

If you are teaching people how to ride informally, why not join the CMSP and do it under the auspices of a formal program instead of one-off, hit or miss?

See above.
 
I have zero idea why they categorize the R3, 300, RC390 as "sport touring" :laughing

Probably going by what people are using them for as opposed to what others think they are limited to doing.

Quite a few people use Piaggio MP3s for sport touring too.

A lot of people tend to think about motorcycling as categories of riding rather than categories of bikes.

When a buyer walks into a dealership and says they want to engage in sport touring they are hustled over to look at the Concours, the FJR and so on, never thinking that for someone who weighs 105 pounds, stands 5 foot nothing can be thrilled sport touring on a 300cc bike that has risers, a taller windscreen and soft bags to go with it.

That buyer probably walks out.
 
See above.

Re: your experience working at a dealership and not seeing women getting blown off...

I can tell you that sometimes it happens so subtly you may not have realized that you saw it. For example, when I walk into a dealership with my other half, a lot of the time, the salesperson will break the ice by asking my husband what he rides. The salesperson typically doesn't ask what I ride (perhaps assuming I am a full-time passenger) and continues to engage my husband on what his preferences of bikes, gear, whatever. To me, that's getting blown off and it has made me walk out of dealerships without bothering to explain why they're losing my business. And, frankly, they may not have even realized that I was their potential customer that day because of the focus on my husband.
 
To me, that's getting blown off and it has made me walk out of dealerships without bothering to explain why they're losing my business. And, frankly, they may not have even realized that I was their potential customer that day because of the focus on my husband.

I know as a man - i cannot understand your frustration in the same way you do but i very much sympathize with your comment. And I will admit i've been guilty of asking a guy first who was standing next to a liter bike if it was his instead of the woman who was also standing next to it (it ended up being her bike).

I also get not wanting to be bothered - but as you state - being blown off in your opinion can be very subtle as the situation you describe - how do you think the moto industry will change its view on selling to women if you don't provide feedback vs. simply walking out and leaving why you did up to guessing if any thought was put to it by the sale rep at all?

People don't know what they don't know - i'm not saying the behavior at the dealership(s) you went to is right or justified but law of averages probably well in their favor that 50 people who walk through their door in a given day 49 of them are men looking to buy a bike.

Wouldn't doing the opposite of what you did - speaking out and informing the sales rep that there are women buyers and that you were looking to buy and now won't because of that behavior help in educating them to think differently?

In the example i gave above about asking the guy before the woman - she spoke up and called me out on it. I was so embarrassed to say the least and apologized several times. I haven't done that again since that day.
 
Re: your experience working at a dealership and not seeing women getting blown off...

I can tell you that sometimes it happens so subtly you may not have realized that you saw it. For example, when I walk into a dealership with my other half, a lot of the time, the salesperson will break the ice by asking my husband what he rides. The salesperson typically doesn't ask what I ride (perhaps assuming I am a full-time passenger) and continues to engage my husband on what his preferences of bikes, gear, whatever. To me, that's getting blown off and it has made me walk out of dealerships without bothering to explain why they're losing my business. And, frankly, they may not have even realized that I was their potential customer that day because of the focus on my husband.

Just curious why your husband didn't just point to you and tell the sales guy "She's the one shopping today, not me", or simply inform them that you're both looking for stuff. That's what I do when that happens to us (in any store for any purpose).

Not trying to justify his behavior, but communication is a two way street, and if the guy didn't know he was doing something wrong, pretty sure if you went in again, it would happen again.

I think we can all agree that for the vast majority of those situations, the sales person isn't necessarily off base. (/me points to recent BARF survey and the demographic results of people who are: interested in motorcycles, frequent internet forums, and take internet surveys).
 
I for one (single data point) was hugely excited for Bosch's cornering traction technologies (C-ABS/MTC) when they came out in 2014, but have never been in the demographic that buys a new (or nearly new) KTM 1290 or MTS1200. So perhaps it's not a matter of dislike, but "not at this price point".



Chicken and the egg?

Yeah, it's gonna solve itself over time. You can get nice, used bikes with the full electronics suite for around 5-7k now, which is good.

See above.

Briefly - I don't work with CMSP or the like due to time. I can spend a couple of hours helping a friend learn to ride a few times a year, but the whole commit of weekends, etc, is a bit much for me.

When you say you've never seen this happen, well, I don't quite know what to say here, cause every woman I know who rides has either a laughing experience about it or a "I'm never going back to that dealership because jfc never want to step foot in that place again after how they treated me". Not to mention the reactions my wife gets when she was riding her 999, 1290 SuperDuke, etc. It's endemic to the community. The endless commentary about "that's a big bike for a little lady", the posturing, the generalized commentary is just cringeworthy.

There's already been a couple of women talking about and pointing out that the gear choices are marginal in this thread. Off the top of my head, scorpion tends towards a very unflattering, boxy fit, dianese is built for slender italian models, A* tends towards the same, Olympia and Aerostitch are both not particularly flattering, same with Klim. If you want something that both looks nice, and fits properly, and is protective, you're unlikely to have very many options unless you are a very particular body type.

Hell, we have enough problems around the distinction between CE Approved, CE Certified, DOT, SNELL, ECE, etc, without throwing the fact that a lot of the gear just flat out doesn't fit into the mix.

Wouldn't doing the opposite of what you did - speaking out and informing the sales rep that there are women buyers and that you were looking to buy and now won't because of that behavior help in educating them to think differently?

In the example i gave above about asking the guy before the woman - she spoke up and called me out on it. I was so embarrassed to say the least and apologized several times. I haven't done that again since that day.

Just curious why your husband didn't just point to you and tell the sales guy "She's the one shopping today, not me", or simply inform them that you're both looking for stuff. That's what I do when that happens to us (in any store for any purpose).

Not trying to justify his behavior, but communication is a two way street, and if the guy didn't know he was doing something wrong, pretty sure if you went in again, it would happen again.

I think we can all agree that for the vast majority of those situations, the sales person isn't necessarily off base. (/me points to recent BARF survey and the demographic results of people who are: interested in motorcycles, frequent internet forums, and take internet surveys).

Both of these points are totally reasonable if you're talking about a friend or a pre-existing relationship that someone might be invested in. But more broadly, at a dealership that intends to provide a decent customer interaction, asking women (or minorities) to start their motorcycling career by calling out their salespeople on their sexist (or racist) assumptions isn't really going to smooth the entry to the hobby. :laughing If folks spent all their time pointing out the casual sexism/racism they experience on a daily basis they wouldn't have time for much else. This is on the dealerships and us in the community to stop from happening if we want to see more people join us.

Also, the surveys you point out are primarily sampling from motorcycle enthusiast populations, which are male dominated - however, it appears that those demographics are pretty saturated at this point and if we want to see the industry keep growing we're going to need to reach out to more than just the folks that are part of the community now, and that's going to require work.

(btw - props to you, MotoBeck, for realizing that you'd made a bad assumption and changing your behavior accordingly)
 
Re: your experience working at a dealership and not seeing women getting blown off...

I can tell you that sometimes it happens so subtly you may not have realized that you saw it. For example, when I walk into a dealership with my other half, a lot of the time, the salesperson will break the ice by asking my husband what he rides. The salesperson typically doesn't ask what I ride (perhaps assuming I am a full-time passenger) and continues to engage my husband on what his preferences of bikes, gear, whatever. To me, that's getting blown off and it has made me walk out of dealerships without bothering to explain why they're losing my business. And, frankly, they may not have even realized that I was their potential customer that day because of the focus on my husband.

I don't doubt your experience. And I'm sorry to hear it. You are offering a valuable lesson, ie never assume, ask neutral questions etc. Thank you.
 
Just curious why your husband didn't just point to you and tell the sales guy "She's the one shopping today, not me", or simply inform them that you're both looking for stuff. That's what I do when that happens to us (in any store for any purpose).

Not trying to justify his behavior, but communication is a two way street, and if the guy didn't know he was doing something wrong, pretty sure if you went in again, it would happen again.

I think we can all agree that for the vast majority of those situations, the sales person isn't necessarily off base. (/me points to recent BARF survey and the demographic results of people who are: interested in motorcycles, frequent internet forums, and take internet surveys).

Oops. I think I made my other half sound unsupportive or insensitive in my anecdote. Let me clear this up. He's awesome and I'm no shrinking violet ( :laughing ). Either he or I usually redirects salespersons' attention toward me if I'm the one doing the shopping that day or to prove the point not to assume that I'm a passenger.I've also given salespeople kudos to them and to their managers, when they approach both of us equally.

re: gear fitment -- Z3n did a good job of describing the various body types of brands. Something that looks good on AND off the bike is a criteria a lot women look for in gear. My Aerostich is great for commuting, but I spent a ridiculous amount of time and money looking for armored jeans and an armored leather jacket that I liked. Last year, I finally found jeans that fit perfectly and this year they're discontinued. :nchantr
 
re: gear fitment -- Z3n did a good job of describing the various body types of brands. Something that looks good on AND off the bike is a criteria a lot women look for in gear. My Aerostich is great for commuting, but I spent a ridiculous amount of time and money looking for armored jeans and an armored leather jacket that I liked. Last year, I finally found jeans that fit perfectly and this year they're discontinued. :nchantr

Nothing and nobody looks good in an Aerostich. Pretty sure the overall designs are inspired by historic fashion of Chinese Labor Camps and Russian Gulags.

[youtube]5CaMUfxVJVQ[/youtube]
 
Having the husband or male go along point to the wife or female and say that they are the customer reeks because that is just one more example of perpetuating the BS. IMHO, (emphasis on humble) everyone walking into a dealership or any other business is a potential customer unless they are obviously underage and not able to enter into contracts.

When its happened, my response is "she was first" or similar without even a hint we are together and then I just look right through them. Then again, I do this even if I am alone and the salespeople show preference to me if someone else was before me.
 
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