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For you group riders - How would you react to this CHP stop?

"Is this a consensual encounter?"

"Are you asking me for my ID, or are you ordering me to give it to you? Do I have a choice?"

"No, you cannot search my <anything>." If they have the legal right to search, they will do so regardless of your answer. As was previously stated they would rather capture your consent on camera.
 
cheez said:
Because others allow their freedoms to be abridged in the name of convenience is no reason for me to.

That said, I'd have shown my ID, because it is probably going to be interpreted as a traffic stop. Now, if I were cited for anything I didn't do, we'd be in court for that.
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Driving is a privilege, not a freedom and to my not-at-all-a-lawyer understanding asking for ID by an LEO is not an infringement of any rights. If they lacked PC to initiate the stop that can absolutely be noted in court, but arguing it on the side of the road (especially with snark) is unlikely to be an effective strategy.
 
Mike95060 said:
I kinda want to go toe to toe with you on this one :laughing

I have family members who were LEO's and others who have also been wronged/hospitalized by LEO's. I'm happy to test the validity of my statement. This might not be the best venue though.

I don't think LEO's are any more noble or "good" than the average citizen. I think if you plucked a random citizen and a random LEO out of a crowd you wouldn't be able to reliably say the LEO would be more trustworthy than anyone else. I just don't buy the myths we tell around law enforcement. I trust individuals when they earn it. That applies to cops x10 because they have power. /rant
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Well if an LEO is basically as trustworthy as any random citizen off the street, then I think my point holds - to reiterate what I said:

"Not saying there aren't [random citizens] who are dicks, but I firmly believe they are the bad apples and are few and far between."

I'm certainly not saying that LEOs are any more noble or good than the average citizen - I think they're exactly the same as the average citizen: Mostly good, with a few bad.
 
Finally (yes, finally, I'm not doing this conversation any longer, since it's gotten out of hand, I fear), you can always say "I'm not answering your questions. Call your supervisor" and they have to do it. Standing mute is always an option.
 
senpai71 said:
Well if an LEO is basically as trustworthy as any random citizen off the street, then I think my point holds - to reiterate what I said:

"Not saying there aren't [random citizens] who are dicks, but I firmly believe they are the bad apples and are few and far between."
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“run-of-the-mill-scum” is how my friends in LE here on BARF refer to me—and my friends in the SFPD, also, no doubt. :laughing :ride


anyway … my line to get away from questioning LE asap is to tell them “sorry, I think I hear my mother calling me—gotta go.” :later
 
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I'd have to argue about LEO's being no better or worse than the average citizen. I have a relative who is trying to become an officer after 8 years of teaching special ed kids.

He's a military vet with an honorable discharge, good with de-escalation techniques due to his SPED teaching background, never been arrested, never been a member of any fringe groups, no tickets/DUI's, no embarrassing social media stuff, Master's degree in education, levelheaded person with no mental or emotional issues, very physically fit - yet it hasn't been easy so far to him to be selected.

There's the physical test, written test, lie detector test, extensive background check, psych exam, medical exam, multiple interviews.

Even if you make it through all that and into the academy you can still wash out if they deem you unfit.
Then you're normally on 1 year probation with a field training officer and if he sees something he doesn't like as he follows you around, out you go.

There's no doubt he'll get accepted somewhere soon but it's a wringer of a process. They seem to be taking only the best of the best despite many departments being way short of officers.

Does this mean all cops are perfect? No.
But how many"average" citizens could measure up to these standards?
 
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cheez said:
It was concealed; he saw it print through my vest and got scared.
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It is strongly recommended that you take immediate action to prevent printing, as printing is never considered acceptable. You speculate that the officer may have been frightened, but I suggest that he was simply fulfilling his duties to the best of his ability.
 
I have a friend who loves to immediately tell LE when he gets pulled over that he has a CCW permit and that he has a firearm on his person, because it’s supposed to be letting the officer know that he can pass the “good citizen” CCW background screen, and that he isn’t a felon. he says all his interactions with LE are very polite. :laughing
 
senpai71 said:
Finally (yes, finally, I'm not doing this conversation any longer, since it's gotten out of hand, I fear), you can always say "I'm not answering your questions. Call your supervisor" and they have to do it. Standing mute is always an option.
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No law requires they call a Supervisor. Though it may be in that agency's policy. The increasingly common ask seems to have been started by the sovereign citizen folks (but I have no idea if there's data to be found).
 
Escape pod said:
It is strongly recommended that you take immediate action to prevent printing, as printing is never considered acceptable. You speculate that the officer may have been frightened, but I suggest that he was simply fulfilling his duties to the best of his ability.
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I disagree. In the same manner some folks think even the sight of a firearm is "brandishing" (it is not). If your weapon gets uncovered- fix that, incident is over.
 
SFMCjohn said:
I have a friend who loves to immediately tell LE when he gets pulled over that he has a CCW permit and that he has a firearm on his person, because it’s supposed to be letting the officer know that he can pass the “good citizen” CCW background screen, and that he isn’t a felon. he says all his interactions with LE are very polite. :laughing
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Some CCW issuing agencies have policy that requires it be disclosed, some do not, others are in the middle somewhere. Follow what your issuing agency says to the letter.
 
Over reach like this is why I get uppity about our rights. Sorry if this is slightly iff topic.

Police compelled a woman to share her home doorbell camera without a warrant. Cuffed in her home at 3am for not passing the “attitude check.”



Second source

www.reflector.com

GPD places officer in Ring camera exchange on leave

The Greenville Police Department placed an officer on leave while it reviews its response to a shooting investigation in Eastgate Village apartments on Moseley Drive, the department said Wednesday.
www.reflector.com www.reflector.com
 
Escape pod said:
It is strongly recommended that you take immediate action to prevent printing, as printing is never considered acceptable. You speculate that the officer may have been frightened, but I suggest that he was simply fulfilling his duties to the best of his ability.
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Naw, I know he was frightened. He was like 22, maybe 175lbs and his voice was shaking. I'm 6' 400lbs and look like this:
14095975_10206988322210422_2288082488194280569_n.jpg
 
NorCalBusa said:
Some CCW issuing agencies have policy that requires it be disclosed, some do not, others are in the middle somewhere. Follow what your issuing agency says to the letter.
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well sure, follow the law.

that’s certainly a truism that avoids nicely the maybe too-subtle point I was trying to make. :laughing :thumbup

LE has procedures to ensure “quality” citizen job candidates—but so does our society in general.

what do we think of my friend’s proposition that being a CCW permit holder is some sort of secret handshake with LE when he gets pulled over?

(for example, my CCW permit application here in SF seems to have dropped into a black hole—presumably because my background screen is questionable. :toothless )
 
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SFMCjohn said:
well sure, follow the law.

that’s certainly a truism that avoids nicely the maybe too-subtle point I was trying to make. :laughing :thumbup

LE has procedures to ensure “quality” citizen job candidates—but so does our society in general.

what do we think of my friend’s proposition that being a CCW permit holder is some sort of secret handshake with LE when he gets pulled over?

(for example, my CCW permit here in SF seems to have dropped into a black hole, presumably because my background screen is questionable. :toothless )
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No data to support it, anecdotal feedback suggests most cops are relieved a bit when they discover a CCW permit. They aren't easy to get, a thourough background check is needed and checked again every 2 (going to 3- on Jan. 1 2027) years. Compared to the average Joe- CCW holders have 10% the crime rate of LEOs. The "secret handshake" that I see anyway is merely they know you didn't steal the Lindberg baby and are unlikely to shoot them. What that gets you? Beats me...

I think the bigger change is smart CCW holders will go out of their way to avoid trouble. We scan the parking lot and pick a spot not for convenience, but for tactics. or avoidance. Some shitheads at the doors- we go elsewhere. Guy cuts you off? Back off & let him go. We simply lose the confrontational drive- I think because even if we are "right"- there's an utter shitstorn that's gonna follow otherwise.
 
NorCalBusa said:
No data to support it, anecdotal feedback suggests most cops are relieved a bit when they discover a CCW permit. They aren't easy to get, a thourough background check is needed and checked again every 2 (going to 3- on Jan. 1 2027) years. Compared to the average Joe- CCW holders have 10% the crime rate of LEOs. The "secret handshake" that I see anyway is merely they know you didn't steal the Lindberg baby and are unlikely to shoot them. What that gets you? Beats me...

I think the bigger change is smart CCW holders will go out of their way to avoid trouble. We scan the parking lot and pick a spot not for convenience, but for tactics. or avoidance. Some shitheads at the doors- we go elsewhere. Guy cuts you off? Back off & let him go. We simply lose the confrontational drive- I think because even if we are "right"- there's an utter shitstorn that's gonna follow otherwise.
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guess my point about what that gets you is a more polite interaction with LE than I’m accustomed to receiving. :laughing

how do we think the OP video would have gone if there was an immediate required-by-law disclosure of a CCW permit and a weapon on the rider’s person?

I’m guessing that we’d assume that such a CCW rider was an exemplary citizen, and would have turned over his DL, current vehicle registration and proof of insurance before being asked?

I’ll have to ask my CCW friend if he hands over that ID stuff prior to being asked for it. maybe he keeps those papers next to his CCW permit.

be all that as it may … suppose I’d file most of this thread under “dangerous confrontations over minor issues.” :ride
 
Just follow the law in a basic traffic stop, fellas.

Save your Capt'n Constitution costume for an actual civil rights violation, it gives you more credibility.
 
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