I recently brought my times down to 2:13's and still have loads to learn. It seems to me that very little of what I know now will be applicable in future moto track days.
Thanks for your guy's responses.
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Tracking a car VS. Tracking a bike
- Thread starter Cosmo-M3
- Start date
Thanks for your guy's responses.
Squidfield
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- are dangerous, be careful squiddy
213 with out t5 or with...
Squidfield
New member
- Joined
- May 28, 2003
- Location
- San Francisco and Anchorage AK
- Moto(s)
- are dangerous, be careful squiddy
bottom line, you can be a superstar in a car out there, but get your ass handed to you on a bike.
serazin
New member
2:13 over 5. I forget what my times are for the bypass. I hardly consider myself a future superstar in cars (I get passed like its my job on some days) and the bike will be more of the same.
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Nope, wrong there.
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Many people in the car culture feel this way, but it just isn't true.
I'm going to have to disagree again. The ability to go WOT without consequence is limited to low hp cars, and even then there are not many places that you can go WOT without consequences. I've seen more than a few cars roll when leaving the track.
Ah, that explains your prior statement about coil-overs and ability to go WOT anywhere.
This part, I can agree with, but this part
I cannot.
^^ The thing i was shaking my head at is the coilover statement. IMO a car can come closer to maximizing traction with stock suspension than a bike. IMO it's the bike that NEEDS suspension to go faster after a certain point. Example..ZO6 vs R1. Both have race tires and stock suspension. An R1 will be 5-8 seconds off it's fastest potential time where a ZO6 (IMO) will be a lot closer. But if anyone thinks i'm wrong please share
S4Alex
Active member
Here is me at Thill..
Rounding 12/13 in my car.. I think.. I cant remember, this pic was taken a few years back.. 5/2001
Rounding 12/13 on my bike...
Same? Did it help? A little.. To me, the lines are a little difference, brake and accelaration points are completely different. Reference points are different. Where I look are also different.
On a bike, I am looking way far ahead vs a car. The lines were also similar, however different enough to where it wasnt able to carry over, at least for me.
I have tracked my car a bit and have only begun to start with my bike. Its definately more of a rush with the bike. I also enjoy it more with the bike.
Tires broke loose easier for me on the car since I was more comfy and new my car really well so I knew where the power points were.
Rounding 12/13 in my car.. I think.. I cant remember, this pic was taken a few years back.. 5/2001
Rounding 12/13 on my bike...
Same? Did it help? A little.. To me, the lines are a little difference, brake and accelaration points are completely different. Reference points are different. Where I look are also different.
On a bike, I am looking way far ahead vs a car. The lines were also similar, however different enough to where it wasnt able to carry over, at least for me.
I have tracked my car a bit and have only begun to start with my bike. Its definately more of a rush with the bike. I also enjoy it more with the bike.
Tires broke loose easier for me on the car since I was more comfy and new my car really well so I knew where the power points were.
Z3n
Squid.
The other issue is that a motorcycle rider who's been riding for a year will be much farther from the "ideal lap time" than a driver who's been driving for a year. A motorcycle is much more difficult and finicky at the limit. A sub 2 minute time at thill would make most people's eyes bleed, and that's within the abilities of a stock R1, yet very few riders will ever see sub 2 minutes, period, no matter what bike you put them on.
If that R1 can go faster depends entirely on the rider. A 200 pound rider will probably have issues, whereas a 140 pound rider may be in the exact right range for the suspension.
Basically, on a motorcycle, the rider is 80% of the equation and the bike is 20% of the equation. On the car, it doesn't matter if the driver is only good, if they're in a faster car, they will go faster. A bike with a higher potential is rarely faster in the hands of competent rider. Thusly the horde of slow literbike riders at the track.
Obviously, this doesn't apply in all situations, but for the vast majority of people, they go faster on 600s then they do on literbikes, whereas that doesn't apply to cars.
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First off, I disagree that a stock R1 is capable of a sub 2min time at T-Hill, but we can ignore that point for now.
I know of a couple of stock cars that are capable of near 2min laps at T-Hill. These same models are seen lapping at 2:20's in the hands of fairly skilled drivers. Getting below 2:10 at T-Hill requires added skill that MOST drivers and riders lack, or are to afraid to push past their fear. In my experience, getting below 2:10 in a car for more than a few laps isn't as much of a question of suspension or power, but skill and a braking system that can handle multiple laps at that speed.
This hasn't been my experience/observation. Drivers of powerful cars do the same as riders of powerful bikes. Hard on the throttle on straights, early braking for the corner, tip-toe through it, hard on the throttle, repeat. An open class bike takes a lot of skill to be ridden within 99% of its limits.....just like an open class auto.
[cough]bullshit[/cough] I have similar on track experiences with my RS125 (34bhp) as I do with my STi(320bhp).
EXAMPLE 1:
RS125: Exit T15 @ T-Hill on the ass of a well ridden, non-racer, R6 only to have them run away down the front straight, I then pass them on the exit of T1 or the entrance to T2.
EXAMPLE 2:
STi: Exit T15 @ T-Hill parallel to a well driven, non-racer, LS1 3rd gen RX7(400bhp) only to have them run away down the front straight, I then pass them on the exit of T1 or the entrance to T2.
And to highlight the opposite, I've had a well driven Civic hatch give me fits around T-Hill for 4-5 laps. I just couldn't catch him. In theory, I should have the same problem with Spec Miata's, but I guess I haven't driven with an abouve average driver yet.
It's the operator of the vehicle. The fast one will be ridden/driven by an operator willing to drive more closely to it's/their limits than the other rider (See 2008 US MotoGP)
Everything you have said is similar to cars except for the part that I highlighted above. How many car trackdays have you attended to cement your observations/opinions?
Z3n
Squid.
None. I'm just acting off of what I've observed from other riders and drivers, as well as an article that Bike (i believe) published a year or 2 back about an R6 vs. a lotus elise around a track. Their results went roughly like so: There was a professional rider on an R6 (WSS racer), who lapped 2 seconds faster than the elise. There was a professional driver in the elise. The writer got on the R6 and lapped at 7 seconds slower than the pro rider, and got in the elise and lapped 2 seconds slower than the pro driver. That is the point: Motorcycles are more difficult to operate as you approach the limit because of the lack of protection, the fear, managing wheelies, stoppies, and a vehicle that doesn't inherently balance itself.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Did you read my post? It's just that on a motorcycle, the rider is a much bigger part of the equation, whereas in a car, the car's raw abilities and limitations are a larger part of the equation.
Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying. Did you read my post? It's just that on a motorcycle, the rider is a much bigger part of the equation, whereas in a car, the car's raw abilities and limitations are a larger part of the equation.
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This part:
Then you said this:
Oh, and let's not forget that driver weight is a factor in race cars too. When I have my cars aligned, I either sit in the drivers seat or have the equivalent weight (in sand bags) put there during the actual alignment.
Contradicts this part:
I completely disagree with the above.
Then you said this:
and follow it up with this:
Oh, and let's not forget that driver weight is a factor in race cars too. When I have my cars aligned, I either sit in the drivers seat or have the equivalent weight (in sand bags) put there during the actual alignment.
In the 3 years I've been tracking, this mirrors my experiences. I also completely disagree that coilovers will "buy" you time. If anything they get you into more trouble if you haven't developed your skills properly. In retrospect, they may actually cost you more track days($$$) to get good times because you never were appropriately challenged with stock suspension. This goes for turns like T-1 T-2 the transfer of weight between T-2-T-3....T-8. Anyways you catch my drift.
also im only talking from my experience. i have a 290 hp wrx with a full cage, BBK, R rated tires and some good suspension. it probably does a 12 second quarter mile. i have a basically stock r6 (ohlins rear and a slip on)
when i was 19 i took my wrx to the track(t-hill). within just a few days i was turning 2.07's. i feel cars to be much easier to get fast. the car does more of the work. you start spinning the rear wheels of a corvette, you can simply let off the gas and itll grab back up.
do that on an r1 and youre going to highside to the moon. thats what i meant by consequences.
i know of a few guys who turn 2.02's on a stock r1 (well. with some 209's)
when i was 19 i took my wrx to the track(t-hill). within just a few days i was turning 2.07's. i feel cars to be much easier to get fast. the car does more of the work. you start spinning the rear wheels of a corvette, you can simply let off the gas and itll grab back up.
do that on an r1 and youre going to highside to the moon. thats what i meant by consequences.
i know of a few guys who turn 2.02's on a stock r1 (well. with some 209's)
like i said
i'm just talking from my experience. i put coil overs on my car and instantly droppped time. i got an ohlins rear on my bike and it is a huge difference, but i didn/t drop 15 seconds...
Z3n
Squid.
This part:
Contradicts this part:
I completely disagree with the above.
Then you said this: and follow it up with this:
Oh, and let's not forget that driver weight is a factor in race cars too. When I have my cars aligned, I either sit in the drivers seat or have the equivalent weight (in sand bags) put there during the actual alignment.
The difference in 100 pounds of a rider will be a huge difference on a motorcycle. It'll be a slight one in a car. 2000 pound car with driver, 5% difference. 500 pound motorcycle with rider? 20% difference. Plus while you may set settings, you're not going to demand different drastically different spring rates for the difference of 100 pounds, like you will with a motorcyclist. Understand? That's why the rider's weight is an important factor in how a bike performs when you're dealing with unmodified suspension.
The point I am making: It is harder to get a motorcycle to approach the limits of a lap time than it is to do the same in a car. If you have a skilled rider who goes around a track and says "do exactly as I do", most people won't be able to emulate that for shit. If you have a skilled driver who goes around a track and says "do this", people will be a lot closer lap time wise.
Let me simplify this again:
If you have a car that does 2:00 around thill (max performance), it takes a good, skilled driver to get it to 2:10.
If you have a motorcycle that does 2:00 around thill, you're going to have to be an excellent rider to get it to do a 2:10. Hell, people are considered excellent riders if they drop below 2:10 on a bike, period, regardless of mods at thill, and according to the AFM lap times, most of those bikes should be capable of sub 2:00 by a good amount. AMA level riders will take them even lower, to sub 1:50. A group cutoff is 2:15, and you can consider those guys the creme of the crop.
Simpler still: It's harder to make up those last 10 seconds on a motorcycle than it is to do it in a car.
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