Rules for blowing the chicane (?) at Infineon?

[OldMadBrit]

Turn 1 is worse

On a related point how about riders going intentionally "off track" at T1.

Pretty much all of the fast guys ride the dirt on the back side of the berm on T1. Technically is this not "leaving the race track"?

It is certainly intentional as they do it inch perfect evry lap.

 

[Climber]

On a related point how about riders going intentionally "off track" at T1.

Pretty much all of the fast guys ride the dirt on the back side of the berm on T1. Technically is this not "leaving the race track"?

It is certainly intentional as they do it inch perfect evry lap.

I noticed that this year as well.

I've never ridden the track, but I recall in previous years that the berm provided a good edge to keep them in and people either hit it right or kicked up rocks if they went a bit outside of it.

Did they flatten out the berm and widen it, which has in effect widened the ideal line through the corner?

 

[EastBayDave]

On a related point how about riders going intentionally "off track" at T1. Pretty much all of the fast guys ride the dirt on the back side of the berm on T1. Technically is this not "leaving the race track"? It is certainly intentional as they do it inch perfect evry lap.

I for one was always afraid of a blowout at speed; so I stayed off the berms with the exception of Turn 7b (it's small.) Those guys seemed to be on the edge of the dirt each & every time!

 

[KazMan]

Screw the OP. He got his answer early in the thread. This turn is more interesting. (But thanks for the thought.)

Dave,
I started hanging around the AFM in '81 but remember watching you guys tear up the track and provide some very exciting racing. Kinda nice to hear the inner part of what we were watching and realize you were that close to or over the edge and just hanging on sometimes.

As well as the names you mentioned, I also remember watching guys like Jon Woo, Harry Klinzman, Daryl "loop it on the cool off lap or was that the warmup lap' W. on the water buffalo, D. Emde on the SJ bimmer, Genedy(sp?) Lubimsky on a 250 (I wasn't there for his Honda days), to name a few, providing a show for the rest of the club back in the days

Fast forwarding to today...In regards to leaving the track in T1, I think a lot of riders ride the berm if possible as I believe it is cosidered part of the track. It does not always work to an advantage (think trying to ride the inner berm in T2!) but it does make me recall a story of King Kenny racing in Europe.

From what my aged memory recalls of the story, KR destroyed the lap record at one of the tracks, and when asked how he was doing it, it was found out that he was actually exiting a turn, using the outside berm as a jump and landing on some asphalt patch that was like 4ft wide and was part of the runout of the turn and the beginning of the straightaway. By doing this, he was able to get on the gas sooner and thus made the straight longer

So I guess it comes down to the race organization making the call on what is leaving for an advantage without gaining a position.

 

[Gnarly Cranium]

h. A rider whose motorcycle is disabled before reaching the finish line
may, by that rider’s own unaided muscular energy, push or carry the
motorcycle in the proper direction of the course to complete the race
unless the rider is determined to be a hazard by AMA Pro Racing.

Are you kidding?? Who the hell can carry a motorcycle? And if it's in small enough pieces to carry, how many do you have to pick up and drag along?? Do you have to keep making trips until you have most of it over the line?

 

[Gabe]

Are you kidding?? Who the hell can carry a motorcycle? And if it's in small enough pieces to carry, how many do you have to pick up and drag along?? Do you have to keep making trips until you have most of it over the line?

Maybe you only have to bring the largest piece...

 

[KazMan]

Are you kidding?? Who the hell can carry a motorcycle? And if it's in small enough pieces to carry, how many do you have to pick up and drag along?? Do you have to keep making trips until you have most of it over the line?

Hey now, didnt Joe Namath carry his bike in CC & Company?
Actually GC, do you think I pulled that from my arse?! That's right out of the 2010 AMA Road Racing rulebook.

 

[Cycle61]

Maybe you only have to bring the largest piece...

I'm gonna grab the key and the front number plate. Should count, right?

 

[mosquito]

Are you kidding?? Who the hell can carry a motorcycle? And if it's in small enough pieces to carry, how many do you have to pick up and drag along?? Do you have to keep making trips until you have most of it over the line?

Hahaha!

I was imagining a busted wheel or locked up drive train just before the finish line and carrying-pulling-dragging the carcass across the line to avoid a DNF.

 

[Z3n]

Mine was 77' to 84' via KZ650, KZ1000, & GPz1100. I only bailed on the big Gpz as it was just too friggin' big & heavy to race around Sears...

Being a BIG guy when I was in tip-top physical shape & working out daily I was still 6'3" & 240lbs. Combine it with a 550lb. bike & I was the biggest combo out there. It did require some extra ballsy riding as EVERYONE had HP on me as they were all jockey sized in comparison. I never won the race into Turn 1, & I had to compensate by riding harder than I wanted to. Eventually it caught up to me as I & everyone else figured it would.

Here's a random, but related question:

How much HP were you making on that KZ650? Because I'd figure that my pace on a ~350 pound, 80rwhp SV650 is going to be close to 100mph through T10. Hell, me and my bike underweigh your old bike alone. The guys on the big boy bikes are going to be even faster through there.

I'd figure you were probably running comparable speed to my SV through there, have you ever gotten a modern literbike into T10 or the old T11 at speed? Because, honestly, I wouldn't want to touch that with a 10 foot pole. I want to move up to a 600 and T10 is pretty much the only scary corner left in CA, as far as I'm concerned. It's fast, there's literally 10 feet of runoff before the wall, and it's a fast corner into the final corner. I've definitely lost out in T10 because I wasn't willing to commit 100% and that reflected in 1/10th of a second loss to the guy in front of me at the start/finish.

Mad respect to you guys that raced back in the day though...there's no way I'd get on one of those deathtraps and try and race it. I'm spoiled by disk brakes, modern suspension, etc. I have to wonder how I'm going to look back in the next 20-30 years on my racing and how racing technology will have evolved in that time...

 

[ucb]

The risk is always there... But I prefer racing to be more about who has the skill, and less about who's willing to risk permanent disability... If winning means having bigger balls than your opponent, we may as well go racing on the streets.

When it comes to the fastest of the fast...and the path getting to that point..its very much about who has the biggest balls

 

[Gabe]

Mad respect to you guys that raced back in the day though...there's no way I'd get on one of those deathtraps and try and race it. I'm spoiled by disk brakes, modern suspension, etc. I have to wonder how I'm going to look back in the next 20-30 years on my racing and how racing technology will have evolved in that time...

I've raced vintage bikes and the funny thing is that once you're used to the bike's lower capabilities, it doesn't feel dangerous or scary, and in fact you can push harder because you're more aware of the bike's limitations. You also don't feel the same pressure to push it as hard as you would on a modern bike.

 

[OldMadBrit]

I noticed that this year as well.

I've never ridden the track, but I recall in previous years that the berm provided a good edge to keep them in and people either hit it right or kicked up rocks if they went a bit outside of it.

Did they flatten out the berm and widen it, which has in effect widened the ideal line through the corner?

No its been the same berm for the past few years and yes running behind the berm in the dirt significntly widens the turn. The key to making this line work is to have the bike stood up again as or before hitting the back side of the berm/dirt.

I'm guessing that once the first fast guy took the risk of this line and it paid off (Spies was the first that I saw do it) then it became the new line for all the fast guys. I'm just surprised that the track marshalls have not made a big deal about it, as it seems to be an infringement.

 

[KazMan]

For me, I think it it comes down to risk vs reward as opposed to ball size. Of course I could just be rationalizing this as a thought to make me comprehend racing. And I do believe that smart balls will win out over big balls most of the times...use ovaries as a reference where needed...lol

Thus, EBD was calculating his risks (crashing) vs his reward (keeping up or making time) with each bike. At some point in his career, he changed the formula a bit and the sum had a different percentage through a particular turn.

Z3n, I think that with the speed and horsepower of todays bike, you also have better equipment to better handle those power and speed requirements e.g. suspenstion, tire width, compounds, thereby making it managable to make those turns.

Compare if you will, a superbike of EBD's era was a 1025cc beast, with as much weight if not more in some cases, tube frames that required plates to try and make them stop wobbling, and tire sizes half the width. It made it interesting to say the least. I remember riding a Z1 900 cc superbike that was fast but when it topped out, it would wobble so bad it would actually tankslap, all while just going straight...think about racing something like that! and know that the guys bike next you does the same thing...better get those Kosman stiffeners! huh EBD?

anyway, here are some pictures if you guys will oblige me, showing the changes in racing equipment over the years, but riders are still riders throughout the eras and will compete!

a Jawa road racer

grid at Daytona in 73 - Kenny Roberts standing up

Eddie Lawson on 50cc or 80cc bike - CHECK OUT THE BAR ANGLES and legs INSIDE the fairing! and the racing boots lol

AFM Fast Guys - My hero Jon Woo

Harry Klinzmann

The factory badd ass bike at the turn of the 80's before they said they were too fast and went to 750cc for superbike limits

Eddie Lawson getting the most out of it

The grid at Laguna Seca do you know who they are? No fair tellin EBD

one of the Honda "golden boys" (blonde) of the mid-80's Wayne Rainey, anyone remember who was the other?

Last weekend - Elena tearin it up!

hrmmmmm risk vs reward with a miscalculation thrown in

But regardless of the era, it still comes down to 2 racers competing, and the one who manages their ride best (equipment being the same of course) will be the winner.

pictures are from 4theriders, superbikeplanet, and I don't remember, but thanks for archiving history and memories for all of us!

 

[Z3n]

Z3n, I think that with the speed and horsepower of todays bike, you also have better equipment to better handle those power and speed requirements e.g. suspenstion, tire width, compounds, thereby making it managable to make those turns.

The issue here isn't making the corner: It's the consequences of fucking up. Crashing in T10 at 120 is very different from crashing at 60 or 80. That's what scares me about T10, is the consequences of hitting the wall. So I back it off a bit, because there's a given amount of risk I simply won't accept. I had a friend crash in T10 and miss the airfence and he got messed up, although he was mostly ok, lucky that he was on an SV. On a 600, it could have been a very different story.

That's why I asked if EBD had had a chance to power through on a modern bike through there. Because yes, the suspension, the tires, the engines, the chassis all allow even lesser riders like myself to go much, much faster, and with that speed comes a lot of potential injury.

 

[KazMan]

Z3n,
That is true...but having seen all the improvements done at Infineon since my last time there in '89, from my perspective, the track is soooooo much safer.
And I do however, completely understand the perspective of looking at the track knowing that work comes on Monday, and/or crashes hurt.
Mostly I guess the pictures are for EBD and guys like him, as an acknowledgement on how far the sport has come since riding a Kz650. Heck it was traumatic when the GPz's showed up in '81!
No offense meant my friend

 

[Z3n]

I did enjoy the pictures. I just wish I didn't have the potential consequences of T10 out there like that, because it'd be a super fun corner if not for that. The track is definitely safer now, but it's one of those few niggling things that remain...

 

[Gnarly Cranium]

I have to wonder how I'm going to look back in the next 20-30 years on my racing and how racing technology will have evolved in that time...

Well first off, the bikes will be hovering, and covered with glowy colored lights. I bet some of the races will have Quidditch-type rules.

Hey now, didnt Joe Namath carry his bike in CC & Company?
Actually GC, do you think I pulled that from my arse?! That's right out of the 2010 AMA Road Racing rulebook.

Okay then, THEY pulled it out of their ass maybe?

 

[Burning1]

I've raced vintage bikes and the funny thing is that once you're used to the bike's lower capabilities, it doesn't feel dangerous or scary, and in fact you can push harder because you're more aware of the bike's limitations. You also don't feel the same pressure to push it as hard as you would on a modern bike.

I absolutely agree with that... It's part of the reason I feel like it's hard to compare my experience on the GS with the guys who ride modern 600s. With the lightweight frame and low output, there are a lot of things the 600cc guys have to think about that I really don't even notice. Turn 10 for me is pretty trivial - exit turn 9, go WFO and use pretty much any line that catches my fancy

 

[Burning1]

When it comes to the fastest of the fast...and the path getting to that point..its very much about who has the biggest balls

I see huge balls in the back of the 600 classes. It's the number 1 reason I am not willing to race there.

Personally, I think riding within the limits of my skill is the path to success. I could ride a lot fast than I do, but I know that riding at my limits of lean angle and traction carries the promise of an almost inevitable crash, due to my inconsistency in other areas.

When I consider the risk/reward ratio, it strongly favors investing time and energy on improving my skill, instead of riding over my head, and investing time and energy on crash recovery.