Rules for blowing the chicane (?) at Infineon?

[EastBayDave]

Dave,
I started hanging around the AFM in '81 but remember watching you guys tear up the track and provide some very exciting racing. Kinda nice to hear the inner part of what we were watching and realize you were that close to or over the edge and just hanging on sometimes.

As well as the names you mentioned, I also remember watching guys like Jon Woo, Harry Klinzman, Daryl "loop it on the cool off lap or was that the warmup lap' W. on the water buffalo, D. Emde on the SJ bimmer, Genedy(sp?) Lubimsky on a 250 (I wasn't there for his Honda days), to name a few, providing a show for the rest of the club back in the days
.

You guys, 24 hours later & a dozen+ posts more to answer?

Oh yeah, remember all those guys. When I was running 750 "Superstreet" on the KZ650 in 79'/80' Daryl White & David Emde always were the top 2. They both had more talent than I (better bikes too?), & I could never stay with them on the 717cc Yosh kitted/Web cammed KZ. The funny thing was watching them fight to see who was first into turn 2 at the start of every race.

Bang, bash, bang cases/elbows/etc., both of them leaving darkies from both tires side-by-side, what a thrill to watch from my view in 3rd. These two guys hated each other. David I think was the more cautious/thoughtful, & Daryl had slightly more raw talent (or was it bravery?) He'd pull away on the buffalo eventually & either win, or crash. I think had Daryl backed it down a notch he would have won more & maybe they would have let him race AMA Nationals (they didn't let him get an AMA license, saying he crashed too much -if i recall correctly.) I used to buy parts from Daryl @ his shop & always thought he was a nice guy. Met John Williams at his shop several times too. Poor John was so fast too; seemed he never got a break.

What can you say about Harry; extremely fast guy who had he committed himself totally to racing w/o the party favors may have done better? I -heard- at times he had to win in order to get the $ to get home. Wow.

I am still saddened to hear about Jon Woo. I didn't know him personally, but it was clear to all he was one of the faster AFM guys doing the Nationals. I still recall how sad we all were when he passed at the Honda tryout at Laguna...

 

[EastBayDave]

Here's a random, but related question:

How much HP were you making on that KZ650? Because I'd figure that my pace on a ~350 pound, 80rwhp SV650 is going to be close to 100mph through T10. Hell, me and my bike underweigh your old bike alone. The guys on the big boy bikes are going to be even faster through there.

No dyno's back then so I'll make a wild guess. The kz then came w/64hp spec from KAW at the crank. I had the Yoshimura bore kit (by Moriwaki) out to 717cc. I had the head done w/mild porting once I left Production & entered Superstreet class.

It had oversize Manley valves/springs & Ti retainers (this made it rev much faster w/the loss of valve train weight- it was done seperately from the other engine mods & man, what an improvement those lightweight tappets/cams made.) It had of course the Murray exhaust (which I ran open header at the time, no baffle=LOUD) Put on a set of 29mm Mikiuni "Smoothbores" w/stacks & had the tranny undercut for better shifting. That's most of it if as I recall. Ran the stock charging system although I'd unplug it for GP to run "total loss." My wild guess someplace around ~85hp?

Note= all the 750's, CB750/GS750's all had hp on me. It seemed that way but could have been my gorrila size weight on the bike running against smaller people. Ya know I should have played NFL.

I'd figure you were probably running comparable speed to my SV through there, have you ever gotten a modern literbike into T10 or the old T11 at speed? Because, honestly, I wouldn't want to touch that with a 10 foot pole.

Never a modern sportbike but oh yeah, every time if I had gearing right it was topped out in 9, flop it over the other way (no brakes), down a gear for a little engine braking, & almost instantly roll it back on -feeling for traction for the drive out. Always had to avoid the pothole going in (bitched about it for years), but the drive out to the braking contest zone going into 11 was flat awesome. I loved it! (I always seemed to enjoy the faster corners than the slower ones, sliding seemed to me to be more controllable at faster speeds than at slow speeds.)

I want to move up to a 600 and T10 is pretty much the only scary corner left in CA, as far as I'm concerned. It's fast, there's literally 10 feet of runoff before the wall, and it's a fast corner into the final corner. I've definitely lost out in T10 because I wasn't willing to commit 100% and that reflected in 1/10th of a second loss to the guy in front of me at the start/finish.

Mad respect to you guys that raced back in the day though...there's no way I'd get on one of those deathtraps and try and race it. I'm spoiled by disk brakes, modern suspension, etc. I have to wonder how I'm going to look back in the next 20-30 years on my racing and how racing technology will have evolved in that time...

Well hard to comment on T10 nowdays. It's been paved since then & with the new chicane I assume you guys are going slower there? I donno, but it was a top of 4th gear corner for me (5 speed bikes), as I always had to downshift from 5th & wind it on in 4th for that corner. Don't look at that wall, it will just slow you down. Look at you line toward the exit & T11.

Wow; you'd hardly realize the improvements that will be made like I can now see from 30 years ago. Back then the "sportbike" thing was just starting, & everyone pretty much had almost equal equiment (except for you cheaters. YOU know who you are- remember that protest?)

What I see are wider wheels/tires, with a larger contact patch as being the biggest improvement. I think THAT is probably the biggest improvement; I used to call our tires "rim protectors." Add the much lighter bike weights, stiffer chassis, & much better brakes/horsepower & that's about it. Riders are the same, probably always will be is my guess. We all like goin' fast!!!

On to the next reply...

 

[EastBayDave]

I've raced vintage bikes and the funny thing is that once you're used to the bike's lower capabilities, it doesn't feel dangerous or scary, and in fact you can push harder because you're more aware of the bike's limitations. You also don't feel the same pressure to push it as hard as you would on a modern bike.

that's my opinion of the older bikes too; they gave you more than ample warning you were reaching the edge. Bike sez: "back off now or I spit you off!" ...& you dropped it down a half/notch....

 

[Z3n]

No dyno's back then so I'll make a wild guess. The kz then came w/64hp spec from KAW at the crank. I had the Yoshimura bore kit (by Moriwaki) out to 717cc. I had the head done w/mild porting once I left Production & entered Superstreet class.

It had oversize Manley valves/springs & Ti retainers (this made it rev much faster w/the loss of valve train weight- it was done seperately from the other engine mods & man, what an improvement those lightweight tappets/cams made.) It had of course the Murray exhaust (which I ran open header at the time, no baffle=LOUD) Put on a set of 29mm Mikiuni "Smoothbores" w/stacks & had the tranny undercut for better shifting. That's most of it if as I recall. Ran the stock charging system although I'd unplug it for GP to run "total loss." My wild guess someplace around ~85hp?

Alright, so we could figure about the same HP, but I've got a 200 pound+ weight advantage. I'm an OK rider, enough to go out there and not be DFL but I'm still not anywhere near top 10 pace.

Note= all the 750's, CB750/GS750's all had hp on me. It seemed that way but could have been my gorrila size weight on the bike running against smaller people. Ya know I should have played NFL.

Never a modern sportbike but oh yeah, every time if I had gearing right it was topped out in 9, flop it over the other way (no brakes), down a gear for a little engine braking, & almost instantly roll it back on -feeling for traction for the drive out. Always had to avoid the pothole going in (bitched about it for years), but the drive out to the braking contest zone going into 11 was flat awesome. I loved it! (I always seemed to enjoy the faster corners than the slower ones, sliding seemed to me to be more controllable at faster speeds than at slow speeds.)

Any idea how fast you were going? I figure that the really fast guys on the really fast bikes are probably doing well over 100 through there now, even with the chicane in place.

Well hard to comment on T10 nowdays. It's been paved since then & with the new chicane I assume you guys are going slower there? I donno, but it was a top of 4th gear corner for me (5 speed bikes), as I always had to downshift from 5th & wind it on in 4th for that corner. Don't look at that wall, it will just slow you down. Look at you line toward the exit & T11.

Wow; you'd hardly realize the improvements that will be made like I can now see from 30 years ago. Back then the "sportbike" thing was just starting, & everyone pretty much had almost equal equiment (except for you cheaters. YOU know who you are- remember that protest?)

What I see are wider wheels/tires, with a larger contact patch as being the biggest improvement. I think THAT is probably the biggest improvement; I used to call our tires "rim protectors." Add the much lighter bike weights, stiffer chassis, & much better brakes/horsepower & that's about it. Riders are the same, probably always will be is my guess. We all like goin' fast!!!

On to the next reply...

The tires and chassis I think are the biggest changes...the bikes actually handle the power, put it down, and in my case, shows you how bad the rider really is. Fast, but not very flattering.

Either way, I think something is going to have to be done about T10 at some point. They can't add any more chicanes, after all.

 

[EastBayDave]

For me, I think it it comes down to risk vs reward as opposed to ball size. Of course I could just be rationalizing this as a thought to make me comprehend racing. And I do believe that smart balls will win out over big balls most of the times...use ovaries as a reference where needed...lol

Thus, EBD was calculating his risks (crashing) vs his reward (keeping up or making time) with each bike. At some point in his career, he changed the formula a bit and the sum had a different percentage through a particular turn.

Z3n, I think that with the speed and horsepower of todays bike, you also have better equipment to better handle those power and speed requirements e.g. suspenstion, tire width, compounds, thereby making it managable to make those turns.

Compare if you will, a superbike of EBD's era was a 1025cc beast, with as much weight if not more in some cases, tube frames that required plates to try and make them stop wobbling, and tire sizes half the width. It made it interesting to say the least. I remember riding a Z1 900 cc superbike that was fast but when it topped out, it would wobble so bad it would actually tankslap, all while just going straight...think about racing something like that! and know that the guys bike next you does the same thing...better get those Kosman stiffeners! huh EBD?

Oh you bet; although only the pre-81' KZ1000's needed the Kosman engine mounts (I think he still has some in stock last time I chatted w/Sandy.) The 81' KZ1000J model had a newer, larger tube frame after that, & all it needed then was shocks & front end work to make it handle tits. First time I raced the 1000J I started from the back row (no points), & charged thru the pack to a race-long dice with "The Kos" (Mike Koslarich sp?) for the lead.

Finally ended up second after hurting the engine on entering the second to last lap when it popped out of gear in T12 & twisted the crank. (KAW started welding them after that.) I nursed it home to second place & sadly gave it back to the dealer on a trade-in for the GPz1100 rather than rebuild it. Hindsight is 20/20 & perhaps I should have gone the other route as the GPz although faster, was much heavier & didn't handle anywhere near as good.

The KZ1000 "J" model then became Team Kawasaki (Muzzy's) racebike (as the KZ1000S), as ridden by Eddie Lawson to the AMA National Championship. I was given the opportunity from Kawasaki to purchase one of those (pure racebikes), but sadly didn't have the bux. Shortly thereafter I totaled the GPz & broke a couple bones & ended my career (soly due to the financial situation.)

If only I had bought the KAW/Muzzy racebike what would have happened....(sigh)...?

 

[EastBayDave]

Alright, so we could figure about the same HP, but I've got a 200 pound+ weight advantage. I'm an OK rider, enough to go out there and not be DFL but I'm still not anywhere near top 10 pace.

Ok, so I assume your out there to just race & have fun. That & advancing your skills should be the goal; at least until you get to the top 10.

Any idea how fast you were going? I figure that the really fast guys on the really fast bikes are probably doing well over 100 through there now, even with the chicane in place.

Again going from my history knowledge, I'd guess someplace in the 115-120mph range for most stock bikes back then. "The Grand Prix/Superstreet" bikes maybe 15-20mph faster? When I was running the GPz1100, we calculated a top speed around 9 topped out in 5th gear to someplace around 135-140 or so (lowered gearing), & as you had to drop it into the top range of 4th & wring out 4th all the eway on the way to T11 I'd guess someplace ~120+ or so? It's a wild guess as I always taped up (or removed) my speedo so I wouldn't look at it. (don't wanna get skert!)

The tires and chassis I think are the biggest changes...the bikes actually handle the power, put it down, and in my case, shows you how bad the rider really is. Fast, but not very flattering.
Either way, I think something is going to have to be done about T10 at some point. They can't add any more chicanes, after all.

Don't worry about it; your out there having fun, enjoying racing, & learning skills most riders will never have. That puts you ahead of 95% of street riders which is way ahead in "the book of EBD."

As for fixing T10? We been saying that since I first started going there in about 1974'. Little if anything has ever been done; perhaps airfence is the best improvement as all we ever had is tires/haybales. If your not comfortable there just keep it down a notch there until you are- if you ever will be. Not worth losing any sleep over.

It's amateur racing & it's not like your going to lose money or stature for going a little slow in 10. Enjoy your racing & simply get thru there so you can do better in the next corner. It's what I did...corners I didn't like I generally didn't try as hard there, even if was only a very -slight- roll off the throttle there. Live to ride & race another day...

Kudo's to you for having the courage to ask. Many wouldn't, congrats!...

 

[Z3n]

Ok, so I assume your out there to just race & have fun. That & advancing your skills should be the goal; at least until you get to the top 10.

My dreams of being Rossi are over. I'd like to one day stand on the top of a box, maybe it's a possibility, maybe it's not.

Instead, I will pump all of my pent up lack of success at racing into my children, who will be slaves to the 2 wheeled gods in teh garage. It's the american way!

Again going from my history knowledge, I'd guess someplace in the 115-120mph range for most stock bikes back then. "The Grand Prix/Superstreet" bikes maybe 15-20mph faster? When I was running the GPz1100, we calculated a top speed around 9 topped out in 5th gear to someplace around 135-140 or so (lowered gearing), & as you had to drop it into the top range of 4th & wring out 4th all the eway on the way to T11 I'd guess someplace ~120+ or so? It's a wild guess as I always taped up (or removed) my speedo so I wouldn't look at it. (don't wanna get skert!)

Yeah, that's proper quick. Didn't someone die in T10 and that's when they put in the chicane?

Don't worry about it; your out there having fun, enjoying racing, & learning skills most riders will never have. That puts you ahead of 95% of street riders which is way ahead in "the book of EBD."

Thanks!

As for fixing T10? We been saying that since I first started going there in about 1974'. Little if anything has ever been done; perhaps airfence is the best improvement as all we ever had is tires/haybales. If your not comfortable there just keep it down a notch there until you are- if you ever will be. Not worth losing any sleep over.

It's amateur racing & it's not like your going to lose money or stature for going a little slow in 10. Enjoy your racing & simply get thru there so you can do better in the next corner. It's what I did...corners I didn't like I generally didn't try as hard there, even if was only a very -slight- roll off the throttle there. Live to ride & race another day...

Kudo's to you for having the courage to ask. Many wouldn't, congrats!...

Yeah, that's sort of how I look at it. I figure maybe if I'm scrapping for top 10, we'll see about a little more risk in the risky corners, until then, fuggit, I'm still slow.

 

[EastBayDave]

Didn't someone die in T10 and that's when they put in the chicane?

(let me say sorry about typo's, I'm not spell/grammar checking any of this.)

Yeah if I recall correctly (realize w/my brain damage, my short/long term memory is "iffy"- I only recall the BIG events it seems.) Over my 25+ years of hanging around AFM events there were 1/2 dozen big crashes there, & 3 fatal crashes in the T9-10 area that I recall.

The 1st I remember was morning practice: a rookie got in a BIG speed wobble in 9, & stood on the rear brake! (Myself & Frankie Mazur were about to pass him as we side-by-side in 8A having a fun little dice), & we watched him go under the guard rail in 9. His Katana 1100 went up on top of the guard rail & barrel-rolled creating a "cloud" of debris which we had to ride thru (too late to stop.) I clearly recall the forks & front wheel going over my shoulder, & I had to duck to miss the wheel! After passing thru the "cloud," we looked at each other, & both immediately went right back into the tuck, & continued our dice...until the red flag. The rider ended up w/a badly broken leg & almost drowned in the pool of water behind the rail because it took awhile for the turnworkers to get to him. That was a wild one man! I still miss little Frankie & think of him often.

Sometime later a hot up & coming fellow (don’t remember name) on a TZ250 hit a deer between 8a & 9, instantly killing him. That one bothered a lot of people as he was a well known/liked guy. Deer seemed to be a constant problem back then. I had 3 of them jump the guard rail just as I entered 9 once just after snicking 5th gear; luckily for me they kept walking off-track. Shew!

I was taking pics on the outside of 10 one day & watched Wayne Montoya hit his LOW peg mount at the apex of T10 on his old RD/TZ350, washing the tires out & went flying into the bails at high-speed (legs straight up, scraping helmet all the way to the bails!) I walked up to him asking "Wayne you alright?" He says.."uh uh...yeah I think so." He was clearly dazed but apparently uninjured, I think? (correct me Wayne if you happen to see this.)

Watched Gary "xxxxs" (forget last name) well known/popular Santa Rosa area National caliber rider loose it @ exit of 9, & slid all the way to the T10 apex in the dirt. Luckily uninjured as he rode later in the day. Dang he was a popular fella but I can't recall his name...

"Heard" of a wreck in 10 where someone broke their neck & was killed. I was not there that day & don't know specifics.

Was there the day another popular AFM/AMA National rider fell in 10 & broke his back, becoming paralyzed. Again I don't remember his name, but heard later he sued the AFM & the track & won. THIS was the reason for the chicane's addition to T9 -I think.- Again my memory is hazy of many of these events, & I'm sure I’m missing more than a couple. Remind me folks & I can maybe dig it out of the fog.

That's about all I can recall this time of the morning (need coffee.) I'm sure I'm missing a few; I just can't pull them out man. Right on the tip of my tongue. T10 always has been dangerous & fast. But it's thrilling if you get it right. I still have a pic of Bruce Hammer (Team Hammer/Yosh) going thru there at what must be at least 130+mph on a superbike.

& again, I still miss the fast esses leading into the thrilling T10 exit to the braking contest in the old T11. It was a blast! Sorry if I seem insensitive to those that have been hurt there; I just never had a problem w/that corner ever, in fact I loved it.

(edit: for clarity of the above, after I stopped being a pitman for several different riders in the 80's/90's, I stopped going to AFM/AMA events about 00' as I had been going to almost every race since the mid-70's. Just got a bit tired of it. Therefore, I don't know about anything that happened in the last decade.) BTW, best finish of MY riders was 87', Jeff Bannister finished 2nd Open GP Championship on a former Jon Woo GS1000 superbike. Chuck Below won the championship on a 87' GS1100 superbike.

FWIW, IMHO

-ebd

 

[afm199]

I've ridden almost all of the SP configurations, on everything from a Norton Commando to a CBR1000rr. The current track is far and away safer than anything earlier. The bus stop does break the flow, but that's racing. The old T10 was a dangerous corner. I think Roque Torres threw a bike halfway to Highway one once there. (I may be wrong, but I do remember the old GSXR 600 first water cooled coming back to his pit as a pile of parts). At least the pond on top of T1/T2 hill is gone, and nobody gets sky and ends up in it any more.

 

[KazMan]

I believe Gary xxxx, was Scott Gray who pitched if I recall correctly, a Yosh supported bike, down the track prepping for a National or a tryout for the Yosh team.

Deer used to be a regular occurence as were big ass bunnies running around the track.

Ahhh, the pond....with the fabled legend that at the bottom of the pond sat a factory bike that could not be found.

T10 was/is just one of those turns where you had/have to respect. It was/is fast you had to "hit your marks" so to say. If you didn't, you were going to have to expect the unexpected. You could cheat several turns at Sears, but not the old T10 or the new T10 so it seems. I hope to find out soon.

 

[OldMadBrit]

I've ridden almost all of the SP configurations, on everything from a Norton Commando to a CBR1000rr. The current track is far and away safer than anything earlier. The bus stop does break the flow, but that's racing. The old T10 was a dangerous corner. I think Roque Torres threw a bike halfway to Highway one once there. (I may be wrong, but I do remember the old GSXR 600 first water cooled coming back to his pit as a pile of parts). At least the pond on top of T1/T2 hill is gone, and nobody gets sky and ends up in it any more.

+ eleventy billion the old T10 was just plain lethal once speeds through it got over 120 and the new T1 has cut down on T2 & T3 crashes.

The car guys hated it as well. SCCA lost a few good men at the old T 10. I stuffed a Spec Racer Ford into the wall backwards there in 2001. I was doing 130, at that speed you got airborne very easily. I had a "sky - dirt - sky" moment, destroyed the car and was very fortunate to live to talk about it. Way too many riders got airlifted after stuffing the old T10.

 

[EastBayDave]

I've ridden almost all of the SP configurations, on everything from a Norton Commando to a CBR1000rr. The current track is far and away safer than anything earlier. The bus stop does break the flow, but that's racing. The old T10 was a dangerous corner. I think Roque Torres threw a bike halfway to Highway one once there. (I may be wrong, but I do remember the old GSXR 600 first water cooled coming back to his pit as a pile of parts). At least the pond on top of T1/T2 hill is gone, and nobody gets sky and ends up in it any more.

Yep & there's actually a UToob video of that someplace there (seen it.) That's not the only time a bike made it halfway to the highway there. I vaguely remember a bike making it all the way out of the property & ON to Hwy. 121. I don't remember who tho...think it was a TZ250....?

 

[EastBayDave]

I believe Gary xxxx, was Scott Gray who pitched if I recall correctly, a Yosh supported bike, down the track prepping for a National or a tryout for the Yosh team.

You got it, Scott Gray. Thanks for the reminder. Fastest No. CA guy who never made a factory team. Very friendly guy, personable, & hard rider too. Lent me tools a couple times in da pits...

Deer used to be a regular occurence as were big ass bunnies running around the track..

I recall the AFM going to SF Zoo & collecting things like "puma piss" (how was that collected?) & "lion sh*t" to spread around the track trying to fight the deer. It worked, for like a day or two until it dried out.

Ahhh, the pond....with the fabled legend that at the bottom of the pond sat a factory bike that could not be found.

The pond...lol. As I mentioned there were several around the track, one on the backside of 9 behind the guard rail (that almost drowned that Katana rider), & I think there were 2/3 behind Turn 1/1a (where the submerged bike went & it took them awhile to find it.)

T10 was/is just one of those turns where you had/have to respect. It was/is fast you had to "hit your marks" so to say. If you didn't, you were going to have to expect the unexpected. You could cheat several turns at Sears, but not the old T10 or the new T10 so it seems. I hope to find out soon.

I used to get downright miffed at that damn pothole at the entrance to 10 that was right -ON- the fast line. If you went under it you would plow wide on the exit, if you went outside it, you might get passed underneath on the way into 11. I think someone finally hit it & lost it into the tires one day; after that they patched it & at least you could go over it then (although bumpy there afterwards.)

 

[EastBayDave]

+ eleventy billion the old T10 was just plain lethal once speeds through it got over 120 and the new T1 has cut down on T2 & T3 crashes.

Yeah but once again like "The Esses," it changed the "flow" of the track. If you got your T11 exit right you could fly WFO all the way to the T2 entrance berm (on left) before slamming on the binders as the uphill grade would help braking there (I don't think many realize this uphill grade thing?) Few passed there; I sometimes did if I got the drive out of 11 & all the way around the front straight.

I'll never forget the 78' National watching King Kenny hang the rear on the YAM "Daytona cheater bike" (stroked/bored out 500cc GP bike to 680cc) ALL the way from T12 to T1 there. He also was the only one that came off the T6 entrance rise fully airborne, landing heavily & on the rebound tossed it in sideways like a dirt-tracker. Wow. Taught me something about Turn 6, there IS banking at the top. Use it.

+ The car guys hated it as well. SCCA lost a few good men at the old T 10. I stuffed a Spec Racer Ford into the wall backwards there in 2001. I was doing 130, at that speed you got airborne very easily. I had a "sky - dirt - sky" moment, destroyed the car and was very fortunate to live to talk about it. Way too many riders got airlifted after stuffing the old T10.

I went to a couple SCCA races up there just to see if I could learn anything from watching you guys. Sitting on the outside of 10 was downright scary. I think I saw couple dozen BIG crashes there in an hour or two. Spinning on entry, apex, & on exit collecting others. Wow. Looks like it was hairy for the car guys...

 

[KazMan]

I used to get downright miffed at that damn pothole at the entrance to 10 that was right -ON- the fast line. If you went under it you would plow wide on the exit, if you went outside it, you might get passed underneath on the way into 11. I think someone finally hit it & lost it into the tires one day; after that they patched it & at least you could go over it then (although bumpy there afterwards.)

Ahhh. but if you setup the suspension correctly, you could go over it, pitch it over and power down to 11 and had the advantage that others still saw it a pothole because the bumps caused by the cars turning up the asphalt would unsettle their bikes in the same manner as the pothole.
I remember a young novice rider telling me he setup his suspension stiff because that's how Eddie Lawson does it. I asked him if he could dirttrack the back end and he said no, then we (he) discussed how smooth he was . I advised that despite what many think, Sears likes pliant suspension....well....he hit the bump, got into a slapper, and we helped him load up his bike. I think he still believes it was something else, but his bike had no sag, I could barely compress it, and he weighed maybe 130 with gear...lol
And I bet, the current group of racers probably have very similar stories huh? Funny how much things change, they remain the same....or at least I sure hope so
Have fun AFMers this weekend , I will be rooting you all on somewhere around the track on Sunday !

 

[Zerox]

At an AFM event in 2004 we lost a rider in the old T9 in Saturday practice. I remember that day well because in the first practice I asked my teammate "has that concrete wall in T9 always been exposed like that?" Because you're coming downhill from T7 going over 100 mph and staring directly at the wall.

This was after the current T9 chicane had already been built, but we were not using it yet....iirc we started using the T9 chicane the next round and have ever since.

I too liked the high-speed flow of the post-2000 Turn 8-9-10 section, but honestly T9 and T10 are unsafe at full speed. Even with the T9 chicane to slow entry into T10, on a bone stock Production SV650 racebike I literally exploded a T10 haybale after hitting an oil spill and got knocked unconscious for 10 minutes and cross-eyed for 2 months.

Infineon is sooooo much safer now, it's still got walls but the air fence helps a lot. The track has done an incredible amount of work in the past decade to make Infineon safer for motorcycles....the first time I rode there in 2000 I was like "what the hell is up with all these giant dirt embankments and concrete walls 5 feet off the edge of the track?!?" Turn 1 had a concrete bridge to splat you, T5 had an unprotected wall to splat you, T6 had a SF Chronicle bridge and a downhill wall to splat you, T8-8a had giant dirt embankments to splat you, T9 had a concrete wall to splat you, T10 had a concrete wall to splat you, and Turn 11 had a wall to splat you (KC the guy at BRG Racing can barely walk after hitting the old T11 wall). A little mickey mouse haybale "chicane" to act as a "T12" to lower speeds because you were about to cross over onto the dragstrip pavement for a short distance and that pavement was slick as snot thanks to the NHRA machines explodimating their engines there. So you're going quite fast as you bend left to arc into the full-speed T1 and the bike is slipping around on that nasty oil-covered dragstrip pavement.

Now the dragstrip is completely separated from the road course, no more riding over oil-soaked pavement. The T1 bridge was knocked down and moved farther up the hill, and with the T1 chicane you're not pointing directly at the wall at 120 mph anymore. T5 is still dangerous but at least it has air fence now (the air fence was not there in 2005 when AMA rider Vincent Haskovec was paralyzed in T5). T6 still sketchy, you'll hit a wall out there. T8 and 8a are completely different now, they removed tons and tons of dirt from that section to get rid of those big dirt embankments. T9 has the chicane which makes both T9 and T10 safer, but T10 is still scary with the wall so close though it's covered in air fence. T11 is much much shorter now with no wall. No T12 haybale chicane needed.

Infineon is my favorite motorcycle racetrack!

 

[OldMadBrit]

.....I went to a couple SCCA races up there just to see if I could learn anything from watching you guys. Sitting on the outside of 10 was downright scary. I think I saw couple dozen BIG crashes there in an hour or two. Spinning on entry, apex, & on exit collecting others. Wow. Looks like it was hairy for the car guys...

Yes in cars the old T10 was scary if the track was good and you were inch perfect but lethal if anything went wrong.

At 120+ physics put everybody on the same line and there was nowhere else to go. If you didnt take yourself out there was a good chance that somebody else's mistake would. The year before my crash at T10, a Formula V driver (VW engined open wheel single seater) was killed when another competitor span, flipped, got airborne and landed on top of him

 

[Z3n]

Old infineon sounds crazy. Again, it's great to be spoiled these days...

I felt the same way reading Jim Redman autobiography and how he talked about the old organizers looking at the racers like disposables.

 

[EastBayDave]

...we started using the T9 chicane the next round and have ever since.

I've never ridden it with the chicane...have to do a trackday soon & try it out.

...I too liked the high-speed flow of the post-2000 Turn 8-9-10 section, but honestly T9 and T10 are unsafe at full speed. Even with the T9 chicane to slow entry into T10, on a bone stock Production SV650 racebike I literally exploded a T10 haybale after hitting an oil spill and got knocked unconscious for 10 minutes and cross-eyed for 2 months.

OUCH!!!

...Infineon is sooooo much safer now, it's still got walls but the air fence helps a lot. The track has done an incredible amount of work in the past decade to make Infineon safer for motorcycles....the first time I rode there in 2000 I was like "what the hell is up with all these giant dirt embankments and concrete walls 5 feet off the edge of the track?!?" Turn 1 had a concrete bridge to splat you, T5 had an unprotected wall to splat you,

Remember tailing/watching Denny Doherty lose the front & go over that hill before there was a wall there from cold tires on the 2nd lap (take note those w/o tire warmers.) Shortly thereafter during a Nascrap race 2 cars went over that hill endoing into the campground. THEN Sears management finally installed a larger wall there.

... and Turn 11 had a wall to splat you (KC the guy at BRG Racing can barely walk after hitting the old T11 wall).T11 is much much shorter now with no wall. No T12 haybale chicane needed.

Frankly I know T11 was dangerous, & I even bailed at apex entry once. But with the ample size of that corner (lots of pavement there), it was pretty hard to screw up 11 IMHO. I had a friend hurt bad there (Scott Mitchell) hwen he was hit by another rider & high-sided into the gore point between the track & pit entry. I don't know what they can do about that? Also as I say, I did scrub the wall on exit a couple times....

...Infineon is my favorite motorcycle racetrack!

Yep, even with all the issues, SP has always been my favorite of the 4 CA tracks I've ridden. Gotta get up there soon for a trackday. I haven't ridden it with the chicane or the tight T11 yet. Isn't that just TOO tight for a race corner? It sure looks like it from the sidelines....

Would like to hear more of what you guys think of the chicane & 11. Thanks!

Dave

 

[Z3n]

I haven't had any problems with the chicane, although I don't know any better, and yes, T11 is stupid tight. It's a tough corner to get right because it's easy for someone to block pass you, yet going in shallow means I always end up spending way too long leaned over, off the gas, waiting for the bike to turn. I'm looking forward to trying the DRZ400SM out there though, maybe I can work it better on that bike.

(Newb thoughts, remember. )