Why European motorcycles are doing better then the Japanese

[busjohn]

Wrong.

You cannot box what you consider the "rich" into a specific category. Some riders may fall into that category and some won't.

Its like saying that an experienced Moto rider would only choose a KTM dirtbike over a CRF or YZF. Because its European?

Miguel

True, nothing is universally applied across the board but my money would be on the rich guy buying the more expensive toy with a more exclusive badge on the tank rather than the less expensive and less exclusive brand for status, bragging and showing off reasons. And no, "experienced" does not necessarily means "rich".

 

[/dev/null]

Personally, I believe the Japanese have traded their creativity in for sales and what market forecasting is telling them, yes the economy is crap and could effect the amount of $$ they have to develop and build a new bike, but look at Ducati and how they are releasing a brand new model for the last 3 years. Ducati's willingness to bring new models to the game has definitely driven there sales and expanded there market share.

Whatever they're doing is working because Honda alone sold nearly 18,000,000 bikes worldwide vs. Triumph's 45,501 in 2010.

If you look at the numbers, the US market is losing significance to almost all the manufacturers. So I guess we'll be getting bikes designed for the mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, Nascar demographic.

Triumph Sales 2010 - 45,501 *1
Triumph Sales 2011 - 48,684 *2
Honda Sales 2010 - 17,952,000 *3
BMW Sales 2011 (first 3 quarters) - 92,972 *4
Ducati Sales 2011 (first 2 quarters) - 5,200 *5

Just to use a reference 2005 motorcycle sales volume in the US was around 1,000,000 units. This number decreased to just over 400,000 units in 2010. *6

*1, *2, *3, *4,*5, *6

 

[Brewbacca]

Whatever they're doing is working because Honda alone sold nearly 18,000,000 bikes worldwide vs. Triumph's 45,501 in 2010.

If you look at the numbers, the US market is losing significance to almost all the manufacturers. So I guess we'll be getting bikes designed for the mouth breathing, knuckle dragging, Nascar demographic.

Triumph Sales 2010 - 45,501 *1
Triumph Sales 2011 - 48,684 *2
Honda Sales 2010 - 17,952,000 *3
BMW Sales 2011 (first 3 quarters) - 92,972 *4
Ducati Sales 2011 (first 2 quarters) - 5,200 *5

Just to use a reference 2005 motorcycle sales volume in the US was around 1,000,000 units. This number decreased to just over 400,000 units in 2010. *6

*1, *2, *3, *4,*5, *6

yeah, but you have to realize that Honda motorcycles is a HUGE company and has the ability to produce a lot of bikes in one day and has the resources to market and distribute them easily worldwide and triumph or any other smaller brand in Europe don't.

 

[Brewbacca]

also if you want to talk about people who want crusiers, why aren't people buying japanese built ones, which we all now are 1000x better built then any Harley. I don't want to lump Victory or other smaller american crusier builders in with Harley because I think there to small and possibly build a better product then Harley does. i.e. confederate.. or who ever is making Indians know.

 

[Brewbacca]

Discuss

 

[Ogg]

Agreed re: commoditization of the sprotbile - for the longest time the image of the japanese bike has been the race replica. This is starting to change (e.g. Versys, Strom, Tenere, etc.) but slowly. And yeah, a VFR is a cleverly disguised sport-tourer, but it has the sprotbile look to it. By comparison, I can go to BMW or Ducati and play with sprotbiles, tourers, "adventure" bikes, etc. Lots of variety in look, engine config, ergonomics, stated purpose (even if you just end up commuting slab on your GSA you think you could run off on that fire road). Further, the non-RR euro bikes don't force me into having to compromise on crappy brakes/suspension.

Also agreed on the power of a manufacturer supported demo program that allows for test rides. I had to go on "sit on it at the dealer" and reviews when I bought my R1. Would have made all the difference in the world if I could have ridden an R1, GSXR-1K, ZX-10, and CBR and actually know the differences between them rather than having to guess and gamble.

 

[clutchslip]

Discuss

Discuss what? You just ignore facts when they are presented. Here are some more to ignore. Motorcycle sales are less than half what they were just a few years ago. The rising Yen has hurt all Japanese exports, including motorcycles. There are higher taxes on imported bikes in the EU. Demographics are changing. And on, and on, and on, and on. But, you go on with your bad-self.

 

[flying_hun]

I see posts like this and I just kind of laugh a little. No offense to yo at all, but the riding pouplation is not the kind of metric that just gets older. You may be getting older, but someone buys a bike everyday, young and old, and there isn't all of the sudden a shortage of younger riders. I would reason to vet that the pouplation of younger riders is growing at a faster rate than older ones. New riders are born all the time. Old riders on the other hand are usually those who have either ridden since young, or are in a midlife crisis and usually buy some kind of comfy long distance bike far from what this thread is about.

I see posts like this and I just kind of laugh a little. The median age of riders has been going up for decades. It is a well known and often written about problem within the moto world. Russ and I were both riding back in the 70's when the market was dominated by riders in their 20's. Today it's more like riders in their 40's and 50's.

*edit* when I posted this I wasn't using a pc. Just to show that I'm not completely full of shit, here's a link to an article about the increase in the mean age of motorcyclists. BTW, this appears to be an issue in the UK as well.

In response to the J.D. Power and Associates 2010 U.S. Motorcycle Competitive Information Study, which reveals that the average rider age has increased from 40 in 2001 to 49 in 2010, and the percentage of first-time motorcycle buyers has declined for a second consecutive year, Jim Gianatsis of FastDates.com wrote the following piece:

Underlined for emphasis In a nine year span the average age of riders has increased - wait for it - nine years! It doesn't sound like enough younger riders are hanging around to replace older riders.

Riders getting older

 

[clutchslip]

I see posts like this and I just kind of laugh a little. The median age of riders has been going up for decades. It is a well known and often written about problem within the moto world. Russ and I were both riding back in the 70's when the market was dominated by riders in their 20's. Today it's more like riders in their 40's and 50's.

It's all the guys that survived their young years on bikes and never lost the passion. Now, when they talk to guys that aren't lifers, the newbies get all excited because it's a new adventure, I guess. I have gotten a couple of quitters to start again in the last few years. No old-guy newbies, though.

 

[Brown81]

also if you want to talk about people who want crusiers, why aren't people buying japanese built ones, which we all now are 1000x better built then any Harley. I don't want to lump Victory or other smaller american crusier builders in with Harley because I think there to small and possibly build a better product then Harley does. i.e. confederate.. or who ever is making Indians know.

You seriously think people are not buying Japanese cruisers?


No offense meant, but sheesh man.

 

[Punter]

The bike "commodity" is a perfect name for it. I see it said over and over again here, in blogs, magazines etc that 99% of riders aren't going to use something like 50% of a bikes potential blah blah.

So what is all that potential worth? Not a whole lot. Bikes with appeal beyond straight up performance are going to keep getting moar popular. Whatever that appeal is. Leather fetish for Hardley's, Mock turtle neck appeal for the Beemer crowd, Starbucks for the Ducatista's (and Hell's angels) etc.

 

[protokultur]

It's the "MBA-ism" of the Japanese moto industry. There's no room for thin-margin, low production model motorcycles in their boardroom. They broke out their cookie cutters, and now want to maximize their profits on it.

Shit... Duc USA is FAR more mba-ized than any other M/C maker. They teach case studies about Harley and Ducati in biz school. Both have been close to death multiple times and were rescued by private equity.

 

[VicTim]

I see posts like this and I just kind of laugh a little. The median age of riders has been going up for decades. It is a well known and often written about problem within the moto world. Russ and I were both riding back in the 70's when the market was dominated by riders in their 20's. Today it's more like riders in their 40's and 50's.

I think moto's are losing there appeal to the 20 something crowd. A lot fewer young people are getting into riding moto's than in the past. I really don't know why. Safety? inconvience?

It's my belief that the future of the motorcycle is going to be a smaller market unless something happens to buck the trend and get new and younger riders.

 

[TheRiddler]

I think moto's are losing there appeal to the 20 something crowd. A lot fewer young people are getting into riding moto's than in the past. I really don't know why. Safety? inconvience?

It's my belief that the future of the motorcycle is going to be a smaller market unless something happens to buck the trend and get new and younger riders.

Eh, I'm in the 20-something crowd. If I walk into a group of my peers with a helmet, it's all I get asked about. And just about all of them have always wanted to ride, but never have the nudge needed to actually do it.

There's definitely the safety concern. I encounter people who say no way they won't ride, it's crazy. Then I encounter others who say hell yes they want to ride, it's crazy.

I think there's 2 big restrictions:

1) $150-250 cost of the MSF. A lot of young people are broke, especially with older people taking the jobs of teens since the economy tanked. It took me 4 months to save up enough to take it, and in high school I made the most out of all my friends.

2) Few to no low-cc, low cost bikes. There's the Ninja 250, now CBR250, Ninja 650, SV650, GS500...and that's about it.

 

[VicTim]

Eh, I'm in the 20-something crowd. If I walk into a group of my peers with a helmet, it's all I get asked about. And just about all of them have always wanted to ride, but never have the nudge needed to actually do it.

There's definitely the safety concern. I encounter people who say no way they won't ride, it's crazy. Then I encounter others who say hell yes they want to ride, it's crazy.

I think there's 2 big restrictions:

1) $150-250 cost of the MSF. A lot of young people are broke, especially with older people taking the jobs of teens since the economy tanked. It took me 4 months to save up enough to take it, and in high school I made the most out of all my friends.

2) Few to no low-cc, low cost bikes. There's the Ninja 250, now CBR250, Ninja 650, SV650, GS500...and that's about it.

You left out Honda rebel and the othe japanese 250 cruisers. A used motorcycle cost less than a used car. I was alive in the 70's and even remember some of it. In the 70's I didn't really ride but most of my friends did. I always figured that a moto cost less than a car, cheeper transportation.

I'm in business and let me tell you, asking about something and doing something are two very differnt things. Also saying you're going to do something and actually doing it are different as well.

 

[louemc]

Why anything goes as it does, in the Motorcyle Market, is a mystery to me.

How can Harley put out one of the worst motorcycles, in the reliablity and performance divisions...and everyone has to have one...for instance.

I don't believe there aren't enough older smallish bikes with a price that is low enough for any youth to come up with...to be a reason for bikes to be something they can't get...either.

And I don't think bikes aren't safe...I think riders aren't safe...If they can't manage to take their safety, as their responsibility...That's their problem.

 

[theAmazingKickstand]

Why anything goes as it does, in the Motorcyle Market, is a mystery to me.

How can Harley put out one of the worst motorcycles, in the reliablity and performance divisions...and everyone has to have one...for instance.

I don't believe there aren't enough older smallish bikes with a price that is low enough for any youth to come up with...to be a reason for bikes to be something they can't get...either.

The motorcycle market lives on image, not actual use like transportation or sumfin. Harley found their market. Nike basketball shoes found their market. Apple found their market. You gotta get people to want that image more than anything. Harley and Nike sell most of their crap to people who shouldn't be spending what money they have on junk like this.
Motorcycling is mostly image when it comes to $$$. Most people I know see motorcyclists as dumb, poor, and working a shitty job. Shit that's the first thing that goes through my mind when I see someone else on a bike. There are places Im emberrassed to show up on a bike. It doesn't give off a good image to the people I know.
It will be up and down and left and right until people start buying motorcycles becuase they need/want to ride them. Not so that they can tell other poeple they owna motorcycle.

 

[J-Boat]

Most people I know see motorcyclists as dumb, poor, and working a shitty job. Shit that's the first thing that goes through my mind when I see someone else on a bike. There are places Im emberrassed to show up on a bike. It doesn't give off a good image to the people I know.

Wow dude, you need some new friends. That's pretty eFFed up right there...

 

[theAmazingKickstand]

Wow dude, you need some new friends. That's pretty eFFed up right there...

Ehh, although your'e right how many "should I ride my bike to work?" threads have we seen?
I ride it to work when I know no one will come upstairs. I leave it at home if I'm going off sight or have a meeting with someone who has control over my promotion.

 

[Cafe Racer]

True, nothing is universally applied across the board but my money would be on the rich guy buying the more expensive toy with a more exclusive badge on the tank rather than the less expensive and less exclusive brand for status, bragging and showing off reasons. And no, "experienced" does not necessarily means "rich".

My bad. Meant to say "wealthy" Moto rider. Not experienced.

Miguel