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When is "Hanging Off" a bike necessary?

^^^ instructs for street riding? And ignores the street conditions and situations?

And what riders that are under-experienced, view as something to work towards?

Bigger question is what is wrong with you? Why don't You point out the flaws?

This thread was started by a street rider, asking a question about street riding.

That takes it off the table as a track technique.
 
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I feel like the effective lean angle should be a moving target, because your bike needs different things throughout a corner. You need to help the suspension in different ways, and differently for different corners. In general, I end up starting corners with my body more out and up off the fuel tank, and as I go towards the deepest point I drop into a "certain place" (depends) lower and to the inside of the bike; that's not only moving left-right or up-down, but forward-back too because it's all trying to work with the suspension throughout the corner. And that's different for each different kind of corner and road surface too, whether you're slowing into a corner or maintaining speed and just steering, etc.

To keep from overthinking it, I stop thinking about myself and just imagine the bike under me, what invisible weight on top would help it ride the best through each situation. That way there's no math, but all of Keith Code and Ken Hill and other guru's advice still applies...
 
Bigger question is what is wrong with you? Why don't You point out the flaws?

What the hell is wrong with you, can't you read? :rolleyes

I've posted several comments recommending against the practice on the street...but you seem to have ignored them and instead focused on your usual personal attacks against riders you disagree with.

Try treating people around here with a little respect as per the TOS and your points will likely have more credibility.
 
And if the rider is on the ever changing public road surface, and so close to the traction limit that this makes any difference to the rider....And they change the power application, because they see a reason, or the surface traction, changes..Cause public roads do that...

Lou, none of this conversation is at odds with any of the above. I think we all get that you place those things at a higher priority, but the thread has taken some tangents. This tangent concerns how hanging off works. If you're interested, participate. If you're not, fine, but don't be too shocked if other people want to talk about it anyway.
 
^^^ instructs for street riding? And ignores the street conditions and situations?

And what riders that are under-experienced, view as something to work towards?

Bigger question is what is wrong with you? Why don't You point out the flaws?

This thread was started by a street rider, asking a question about street riding.

That takes it off the table as a track technique.

why dont you do it? propose a flaw of hanging off, bring it up in a concise respectful manner, and leave it for discussion. make the your proposed flaw a concrete concept, not an opinionated generalization, so we can talk about it.

here, i got one of mine to help u along...

i think that hanging off as far as i possibly can makes it really hard for me to lift my butt off the seat, making it harder for me to deal w/ harsh bumps.

notice that this is just my opinion and what works for me. im sure there are some riders out there that can deal w/ potholes while hanging off like Toni Elias. also notice that no where did i say that all hanging off is bad. i can shift my butt over a few inches and move my head out of line and still be able to ride my street bike like a dirtbike. and lastly, notice the complete lack of reference to street or track.
 
TZRider, In the context of technique on a race track? Or On the public road?

You actually going to say it doesn't matter? You don't have to bother labeling the where, it doesn't matter, it's the same, at either place?
 
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TZRider, In the context of technique on a race track? Or On the public road?

You actually going to say it doesn't matter? You don't have to bother labeling the where, it doesn't matter, it's the same, at either place?

Lou, street or track doesn't matter really in terms of what effect hanging off has on the bike. It's relevant when you are trying to decide whether it's necessary or even a good idea.

That said, years ago I rode to work taking the back road on a day I knew we'd had freezing rain overnight. The road I took was about 15 miles of tight, goaty twisties, with about 20% of the road coated edge to edge with black ice. I rode it anyway at a careful pace and hung off to keep the bike just about vertical.

It probably wasn't a great idea to take that road that morning, but my approach worked fine and hanging off allowed me to navigate the road with the bike in balance and my body making small adjustments side to side to accommodate losing and gaining traction.

A lot of the points you raise as reasons not to hang off on the street are valid, but they aren't absolutes. Hanging off has a certain effect on lean angle and if a rider decides he has a use for it, then he does.
 
Lou, none of this conversation is at odds with any of the above. I think we all get that you place those things at a higher priority, but the thread has taken some tangents. This tangent concerns how hanging off works. If you're interested, participate. If you're not, fine, but don't be too shocked if other people want to talk about it anyway.

Exactly. Hanging off is done by the vast majority of street riders......they just don't know it, because they are only shifting a couple of inches, or just dipping their shoulder a bit. But it's still the same concept, just to a milder extent.

Now, if you want to see around a blind corner, then sure, make a late entrance and sit upright or maybe even a little crossed-up, but I don't see the need to list every single exception.
 
Humm...Starting in Alaska on ice and snow, and expanding that to Ice and snow in Utah, Idaho, Oregon (Portland should be the black ice capital of the southern 48 states).

I'm not buyin the public road use, on hanging off. In these ice conditions, the speed isn't there...Bike is straight up.

Even spin a doughnut in place..Bike is straight up, without a hanging off, on ice and snow. (mud is a little different, The inside foot on the ground, and a tiny bike lean, is in order there for the doughnut pivot point.)

The School in Sweden, using liter RR bikes, studded (spikes) tires to ice race on, teaching the techniques for pavement racing..The pictures that come from the school, don't show hanging off.

So...I'm just not agreeing, with this, even to the rider deciding...What rider?

One that doesn't have the finesse, and reads this, and figures coming from an instructor, it must be a goal to work on, and get to, to become a more accomplished street rider?

Scary stuff.
 
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...
The School in Sweden, using liter RR bikes, studded (spikes) tires to ice race on, teaching the techniques for pavement racing..The pictures that come from the school, don't show hanging off.
...

Hm. This bit of your comment made me remember a video I saw a while ago.
[youtube]OX_weIUwd_o[/youtube]

So I found it and watched it again... dude's hanging off, and the Porsche is drifting like mad.
 
Hm. This bit of your comment made me remember a video I saw a while ago.
[youtube]OX_weIUwd_o[/youtube]

So I found it and watched it again... dude's hanging off, and the Porsche is drifting like mad.

Ok, Definitely...Hadn't seen that picture. :thumbup

Notice how much footage there is, Cars in full drift, and the bike rider(s) not hanging off at all, though?
 
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Ok, Definitely...Hadn't seen that picture. :thumbup

Notice how much footage there is, Cars in full drift, and the bike rider(s) not hanging off at all, though?

Are you talking about the part in the video where he rides the 450? He is very much hanging off on every corner on the R1. Maybe it has something to do with bike geometry? I was assuming the thread discussion was about riding sportbikes... I have very little experience with dirtbikes (though I recently got a KTM to fix that).

BTW, the rider won both duels :teeth
 
Are you talking about the part in the video where he rides the 450? He is very much hanging off on every corner on the R1. Maybe it has something to do with bike geometry? I was assuming the thread discussion was about riding sportbikes... I have very little experience with dirtbikes (though I recently got a KTM to fix that).

BTW, the rider won both duels :teeth

I was referring to both bike riders, hence the (s) Plural ...

Glad to hear the KTM part, Hope You have a (or some, is better) pro dirt riding friends to get dirty with...That are happy to show you their favorite riding places...And prompt you to as steep a learning curve as they feel Ya can take on...with their examples of it, helping it happen.
 
I was referring to both bike riders, hence the (s) Plural ...

One rider on two different bikes. He definitely is hanging off on every corner on the R1...

The dirt riding learning curve is not very easy on my body :|
 
Another myth/commonly held misconception about hanging off and reducing the bike's lean angle: People seem to think that if the bike is more upright, that somehow that load on the tires is less. Not true. Standing the bike up by hanging off, you will still have the same lateral load G force on the tires. It will just be at a different place on the tire's profile.
 
Hm. This bit of your comment made me remember a video I saw a while ago.
[youtube]OX_weIUwd_o[/youtube]

So I found it and watched it again... dude's hanging off, and the Porsche is drifting like mad.

Might not be a bad idea to note...This is a video..They are putting on a show.

The rider isn't hanging off, the dirt bike, because..
It is both stupid, and useless.

He may be hanging off the R1 because it has a look.

This isn't the school in Sweden and it isn't a race...It's a show.
 
I really wish Lou would just let us know how he felt on the matter. Maybe every other post or something.
 
Sometimes these threads get a bit too detailed and then, incorrect for their own good. First, I'm not sure I've seen data that shows using/ having less suspension travel is a good thing nor that it's less effective leaned over. This isn't a car suspension, its a bike and its job function is most important when at lean angle. Second, the suspensions primary job is to deal with surface imperfections and it is more important to do so at max lean angle, not minimum lean angle...min lean angle just makes for an uncomfortable ride...max lean angle puts you on on the ground if the suspension isn't set up correctly. In short, tune a suspension for lean angle, not straight up and down riding. You want more travel in a corner, not less. A suspension that has too little compression or is too stiff tends to have a contact patch that's less consistent....you want a compliant front / rear end that you can, as a rider, manipulate with the brake/ gas.

Second: lean angle is not contact patch. Weight shift/ location IS contact patch. A rider can control contact patch two ways: shifting body weight (forward/ back) and applying throttle or brake. On a bike, a rider can only affect the relative weight on either the front or rear tires and thus increase or decrease the front or rear contact patches. Riders who sit too far back in faster corners lose front end contact patch frequently, hence the reason the motogp style has shifted to put the rider not more out, off the bike, but rather, tucked up against the side of the bike and very far forward. They're looking to maintain front tire contact patch (the one thing these bikes can't do with electronics yet) coming off of a corner.

Lastly, lean angle equals steering angle. With the newer "slow in, fast out" instructionals most riders are using now (which becomes "fast in, fast out" as riders get towards the front of their grids), there needs to be a point where a bike achieves max lean angle and thus, performs its steering phase. As a rider, it's better to have this phase (max lean angle) be as short as possible. It's also more beneficial to carry more lean angle for a shorter period of time, than less lean angle for a longer period of time (generally). That is one of the easier things to see with all of our Moto GP stars, especially as they come off the corners. It's important to remember, picking the bike up off the corner using body positioning (to pick the bike up AND maintain front tire contact patch while applying throttle) also helps in grip and tire longevity. Remember, with,st modern tires, edge grip should not be used as drive grip....newer riders wonder why they keep tearing tires. A considerable reason is due to using edge grip as drive grip as well as ham fisting the throttle on exits (and thus transferring weight rearward too quickly, not loading the rear contact patch progressively), and lastly (and according to Corey Nuer at CT Racing), not getting enough heat in the tire due to not loading the tire correctly.

An all this is better learned on the track and thn applied on the street. The "feel" of a bike at the limit is the most important thing learned in racing and at the track. Overall, riding like a dickhead on the street has killed a multitude more of my friends than ever in racing and trackdays.

Be safe all...and remember, it's all about how to control your contact patches IMO!
 
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