Why do bike manufacturers ignore "crashability"?

[ilikefood]

So you crash a lot?

Ha ha no, not a lot. But I know that shit happens, so I'd prefer to have a motorcycle that doesn't disintegrate as soon as it hits the ground. My DRZ-SM is great in that respect, and there is really no good reason why all bikes couldn't be much better than they are. Designers just have to give a shit about what happens when a bike falls over.

For people who only ride on sunny Sundays, tip-over survivability may not matter much. But for daily use and for parking on the street, crashworthiness matters. I've had several bikes tipped over when parked, by cars getting into and out of parking spots. Coming back to find broken fairings sucks.

 

[ilikefood]

Do you think crashability will sell bikes? buyers' choices dictate which way the manufacturers go. Take self-adjusted valves as an example, it has been around since the 70s, yet most bikes are sold without it. May be buyers don't care.

I think it's one of those things that people don't know they need until they get it.

Self-adjusting valves are nice, but they have some major drawbacks as well - engines can't rev as high so they make less power. Crashability of bikes could be improved hugely without any drawbacks. I don't think there is any disadvantage to the rubber bumpers on the ST1300. It's just a smart, simple design decision.

 

[ilikefood]

I have owned and dropped both a ST1100 and ST1300 in the drive way. No damage. If I do that on my K1600 it might be a grand or more in damage.

Yup, exactly my point. It wouldn't take much to make the K1600 just as damage-resistant as the ST1300. The designers just didn't even think about it. It's not a question of feasibility or cost, just of approach to motorcycle design.

 

[SummerLove]

Stop crashing or buy a dualsport/adventure bike.

 

[mean dad]

I have a DRZ400SM, so yeah, I know those bikes are tough. My point is that it would be easy (and not very expensive) to hugely improve the tipover and lowside survivability of ALL motorcycles. It's crazy that a 0 mph tipover on a modern full-fairing bike can cause $thousands worth of damage, and we're fools for accepting this as completely normal.

With no disrespect what-so-ever, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Motos have been wrapped in plastic since the mid eighties. If there was an inexpensive and easy way to provide low-speed crash protection, without sacrificing weight, size or performance I'm sure it would have been done by now.

Some cars have ugly plastic strips down the side to protect from shopping carts and idiotic drivers.
Some cars have beautifully smooth exteriors that would crinkle the first time a door gets opened into it, and it would be painfully expensive to repair it.

You want an easy to maintain, solid workhorse of a motorcycle that won't show crash damage from a driveway tipover? Go buy one. They're out there waiting for you.

 

[ALANRIDER7]

I don't think it would be difficult to design a bike in a way that minimizes damage if the bike falls over or lowsides.

You have no clue how expensive and difficult mechanical design is.

 

[MrIncredible]

My point is that it would be easy (and not very expensive) to hugely improve the tipover and lowside survivability of ALL motorcycles.

Having worked as a designer in various manufacturing plants for years and years this just isn't the case.

"Easy" is relative. What type of crash at your trying to prevent damage on? A tipover vs. a crash. vs a collision all have entirely different dynamics. A nice slider that keeps the fairings off the ground during a tipover might go and bend the frame during a slide if they catch on something.

"Expense" is a relative concept-these items need to be designed, tested, built, have quality controls put into place, potentially molds or machining, stocked, transported, delivered, assembled, inspected. This isn't adding a few bucks to the process.

I once designed a minor upgrade for an item that sold for about $14. It would've doubled the performance of said item for a total cost of ten cents per unit. The bean counters told me to fuck off.

It's not easy, nor is it cheap.

 

[Spec-ECU]

If they worried about crashability, they'd be in the business of making cars.

 

[ilikefood]

Having worked as a designer in various manufacturing plants for years and years this just isn't the case.

"Easy" is relative. What type of crash at your trying to prevent damage on? A tipover vs. a crash. vs a collision all have entirely different dynamics. A nice slider that keeps the fairings off the ground during a tipover might go and bend the frame during a slide if they catch on something.

"Expense" is a relative concept-these items need to be designed, tested, built, have quality controls put into place, potentially molds or machining, stocked, transported, delivered, assembled, inspected. This isn't adding a few bucks to the process.

I once designed a minor upgrade for an item that sold for about $14. It would've doubled the performance of said item for a total cost of ten cents per unit. The bean counters told me to fuck off.

It's not easy, nor is it cheap.

I'm talking about a tipover. Preventing damage during an actual crash is much more difficult, but a 0 mph tipover shouldn't result in tons of damage.

I see your point about the difficulty of designing an add-on to an existing bike that's supposed to prevent damage. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the design process holistically taking into account what happens when a bike falls over. A designer who's designing a bike from scratch should take this into account. From what I can see, designers don't think about this at all - with the notable exception of whoever designed the ST1300.

Do you think it was so super incredibly complex and difficult and expensive to design in the small bumpers on the ST1300 that touch down first when it tips over? All that was needed was a designer thinking, "Hmm, let me see what touches down first if the bike falls over. I wonder if there is something we can do to minimize the damage." Again, nobody is expecting bikes to crash at 30 mph and come away with no damage. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a bike to tip over at 0 mph and come away with no damage, or at least with minor scuffs, on parts that can be easily and cheaply replaced.

 

[ilikefood]

You have no clue how expensive and difficult mechanical design is.

This is not a difficulty with design. It's lack of thought on the part of motorcycle designers. Designers simply don't think about what happens when a bike tips over. If they did (as they did with the ST1300), this wouldn't be a problem.

 

[ilikefood]

Stop crashing or buy a dualsport/adventure bike.

I don't crash and I do own a supermoto bike. But I do recognize that shit happens, and motorcycles do fall over sometimes. When I was living in NYC and parking my bike on the street, I've had several bikes tipped over by careless drivers parking by feel. There is no good reason why a 0 mph tipover should cause $hundreds or $thousands of damage.

 

[mean dad]

This is not a difficulty with design. It's lack of thought on the part of motorcycle designers. Designers simply don't think about what happens when a bike tips over. If they did (as they did with the ST1300), this wouldn't be a problem.

You are so obviously not in design.

 

[stangmx13]

I'm talking about a tipover. Preventing damage during an actual crash is much more difficult, but a 0 mph tipover shouldn't result in tons of damage.

...

Do you think it was so super incredibly complex and difficult and expensive to design in the small bumpers on the ST1300 that touch down first when it tips over? All that was needed was a designer thinking, "Hmm, let me see what touches down first if the bike falls over. I wonder if there is something we can do to minimize the damage." Again, nobody is expecting bikes to crash at 30 mph and come away with no damage. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a bike to tip over at 0 mph and come away with no damage, or at least with minor scuffs, on parts that can be easily and cheaply replaced.

any bike w/ full dirtbike bars will almost always fall over better than a sportbike w/ clipons for the exact reasons u brought up... whats going to hit the ground first. is any manufacturer going to sacrifice the feel & performance of clip-ons for crash resistance, fuck no! its not that they didnt think about it, its that they dont want to.

and really, u r severely mistaken about damage when falling over at 0mph for fragile bikes. u think that plastic sportbikes are fragile based on anecdotes, so heres another. ive dropped a sportbike 3x at 0mph and had nothing break or bend. im sure plenty of other people have had the same experiences.

look at it this way... i could buy a $10k bicycle, drop it plenty of times, and itll land on the bars and pedals practically every time. but if it falls just once on a curb, the frame might be toast. should i make the frame heavier and uncomfortable just so it could survive a fall on a curb.... nope. if im worried about dropping a bike on curbs, i should prob just buy a $500 bicycle.

 

[ilikefood]

You are so obviously not in design.

You're right, I'm not a designer. But the ST1300 is proof of what can happen when designers do think about what happens when a bike falls over. So it IS possible to make a bike that doesn't get damaged at all when it tips over.

 

[RickM]

any bike w/ full dirtbike bars will almost always fall over better than a sportbike w/ clipons for the exact reasons u brought up... whats going to hit the ground first. is any manufacturer going to sacrifice the feel & performance of clip-ons for crash resistance, fuck no! its not that they didnt think about it, its that they dont want to.

and really, u r severely mistaken about damage when falling over at 0mph for fragile bikes. u think that plastic sportbikes are fragile based on anecdotes, so heres another. ive dropped a sportbike 3x at 0mph and had nothing break or bend. im sure plenty of other people have had the same experiences.

+1

A tip over doesn't result in thousands in damage for most bikes. I saw a guy who dropped( from stand still) his Panigale and only had a lever break and scratched bar end.

I believe fairings actually limit the amount of critical damage in a higher speed crash. The plastic protects the frame, engine etc.

 

[ilikefood]

any bike w/ full dirtbike bars will almost always fall over better than a sportbike w/ clipons for the exact reasons u brought up... whats going to hit the ground first. is any manufacturer going to sacrifice the feel & performance of clip-ons for crash resistance, fuck no! its not that they didnt think about it, its that they dont want to.

and really, u r severely mistaken about damage when falling over at 0mph for fragile bikes. u think that plastic sportbikes are fragile based on anecdotes, so heres another. ive dropped a sportbike 3x at 0mph and had nothing break or bend. im sure plenty of other people have had the same experiences.

look at it this way... i could buy a $10k bicycle, drop it plenty of times, and itll land on the bars and pedals practically every time. but if it falls just once on a curb, the frame might be toast. should i make the frame heavier and uncomfortable just so it could survive a fall on a curb.... nope.

Not anecdotes. I've had several bikes tipped over when they were parked on the street. '85 CB650S - dented tank. '86 VFR700 - cracked fairing. '97 VFR750 - cracked fairing.

You don't have to have wide handlebars to prevent damage in a fall. The bike just has to be designed in such a way that the first thing that touches down is either sufficiently sturdy or easy and cheap to replace. If the first thing that touches down is a fragile $600 fairing panel, that's a failure of imagination on the part of the designer.

 

[RickM]

You're right, I'm not a designer. But the ST1300 is proof of what can happen when designers do think about what happens when a bike falls over. So it IS possible to make a bike that doesn't get damaged at all when it tips over.

I dunno. I don't think the designed the ST to prevent damage to bodywork. But they did so to protect the engine , which due to the way its mounted is very vulnerable.

BMW did the same with the boxers.

Buell added bumpers on the frame to prevent damage.

So it's not that manufacturers don't account for crash survival. They do when it's necessary.

 

[stangmx13]

Not anecdotes. I've had several bikes tipped over when they were parked on the street. '85 CB650S - dented tank. '86 VFR700 - cracked fairing. '97 VFR750 - cracked fairing.

You don't have to have wide handlebars to prevent damage in a fall. The bike just has to be designed in such a way that the first thing that touches down is either sufficiently sturdy or easy and cheap to replace. If the first thing that touches down is a fragile $600 fairing panel, that's a failure of imagination on the part of the designer.

thnx for more anecdotes, all for bikes that are over 15yrs old no less.

u really have no idea what u r talking about. we get it, u dont like the CHANCE of something needing to be replaced when the bike falls over. so dont buy certain motorcycles, make sure to add certain aftermarket parts, and leave the factories/designers out of this. your complaints are practically like saying "i hate the fact that my car doesnt have a truck bed"... when then buy a damn truck.

 

[mean dad]

You're right, I'm not a designer. But the ST1300 is proof of what can happen when designers do think about what happens when a bike falls over. So it IS possible to make a bike that doesn't get damaged at all when it tips over.

No, your anecdote proves that it was possible for Honda to develop that particular motorcycle. DRZ's have been mentioned several times as a motorcycle that falls over well, yet you ignore it...because it doesn't have plastic to damage I suppose, but everything else that's breakable is still there...handlebars, controls, lights, etc.
You're wanting someone to develop a modern, fast, tightly packaged sportbike that's affordable AND has crash protection in the event of a 0mph tipover....even though I've dropped many sportbikes at near zero mph with no ill effects due to the current manufacturing processes.


But I do see your point, and it would be nice if they at least put a replaceable rubber/hard plastic insert at points of contact. But then those points better be able to support the weight of the bike, + whatever increase there is due to acceleration forces, etc.

Easier for them to say "This motorcycle was not intended to be used on its side."

 

[stangmx13]

Easier for them to say "This motorcycle was not intended to be used on its side."