The CMSP has $250k. How do you want to spend it on moto safety??

[Surj]

Well,

- all caps, bold font looks more serious than your typical street sign
- looks more like we're asking the car on the left of the sign to move over for the rider, rather than actually down the middle of the lane. This is why I have a problem with "lane sharing", vs. "lane splitting".
- graphically, the cars are depicted as cutesy and cheery while the rider is your typical sport douche with a devilish looking visor. could choose a standard or a more neutral looking rider. frankly I think it makes us look like assholes.

Road signs, even ones indicating hazards, usually have a neutral or friendly tone. Tell me the current SHARE THE LANE sign doesn't look more aggressive than any of these:

If we wanted to make it a road sign (not just a sticker like it is now), it would probably be good for driver/rider relations to tone the sign down a notch.

I don't think it does look more aggressive than those, for example the stop sign. You're reading an awful lot into it, apparently without much consideration of the reasoning behind the design.

- all caps, bold font looks more serious than your typical street sign

Lots of road signs use all caps. Like the stop sign in your example, speed limit signs, etc.

- looks more like we're asking the car on the left of the sign to move over for the rider, rather than actually down the middle of the lane. This is why I have a problem with "lane sharing", vs. "lane splitting".

Interesting take. Generally speaking, lane sharing or splitting is not riding down the middle of the lane. The design doesn't say "move over" or "stay to the right" - it shows a rider using available space, which is what lane splitting is. Sorry if that language triggers you.

- graphically, the cars are depicted as cutesy and cheery while the rider is your typical sport douche with a devilish looking visor. could choose a standard or a more neutral looking rider. frankly I think it makes us look like assholes

Wow. Devilish? Why isn't that upward arc a smile? The cars and rider are both near-iconic and lacking features. In fact, one issue you didn't mention is the lack of drivers, which I'm sure could be interpreted negatively as well. Typical sport douche? It's a person on a motorcycle. Makes us look like assholes? I don't even know what to say to that.

But relax, no one's making that sticker into a road sign.

 

[philipviana]

Interesting take. Generally speaking, lane sharing or splitting is not riding down the middle of the lane. The design doesn't say "move over" or "stay to the right" - it shows a rider using available space, which is what lane splitting is. Sorry if that language triggers you.

My mistake. I meant to write that I typically think of lane splitting as riding as close to the line between lanes as possible, not "sharing the lane" with a driver. I think there's been some contention about what is expected of drivers when a rider is lane splitting. Some people think it's better for the driver to move over to the side of their lane to let the rider be able to fully occupy the lane with the driver. On the other hand, it can be dangerous when a driver moves over to the side of his lane, possibly into a rider splitting on the other side. I think the consensus is generally that cars shouldn't be moving around too much and that it's more about "lane splitting" (between lanes, close to the line, with cars being aware that you're there and giving you space, but not swerving over) than actual lane sharing. I'm being a little pedantic about this but it's a tricky subject and I think it merits some deep discussion.

Wow. Devilish? Why isn't that upward arc a smile? The cars and rider are both near-iconic and lacking features. In fact, one issue you didn't mention is the lack of drivers, which I'm sure could be interpreted negatively as well. Typical sport douche? It's a person on a motorcycle. Makes us look like assholes? I don't even know what to say to that.

But relax, no one's making that sticker into a road sign.

Right, it's only a sticker now. However, if we end up deciding to put signs up (since a bunch of people have been discussing that possibility in this thread), it's worth a look at a making it a design that looks generic enough that even people who don't like motorcycles can't complain, so the more universal and less specific it looks, the better. These are pretty subjective and I don't expect most riders to agree. It's how we're seen by drivers, who the sign would be for.

 

[Surj]

My mistake. I meant to write that I typically think of lane splitting as riding as close to the line between lanes as possible, not "sharing the lane" with a driver. I think there's been some contention about what is expected of drivers when a rider is lane splitting. Some people think it's better for the driver to move over to the side of their lane to let the rider be able to fully occupy the lane with the driver. On the other hand, it can be dangerous when a driver moves over to the side of his lane, possibly into a rider splitting on the other side. I think the consensus is generally that cars shouldn't be moving around too much and that it's more about "lane splitting" (between lanes, close to the line, with cars being aware that you're there and giving you space, but not swerving over) than actual lane sharing. I'm being a little pedantic about this but it's a tricky subject and I think it merits some deep discussion.

Are you new to splitting / riding? I'll restate: splitting is about motorcyclists taking advantage of unused space. Cars are gonna move around, and it's foolish to think we can change that. We're in their world, not the other way around.

Right, it's only a sticker now. However, if we end up deciding to put signs up (since a bunch of people have been discussing that possibility in this thread), it's worth a look at a making it a design that looks generic enough that even people who don't like motorcycles can't complain, so the more universal and less specific it looks, the better. These are pretty subjective and I don't expect most riders to agree. It's how we're seen by drivers, who the sign would be for.

There are guidelines and requirements for road signs. CalTrans or whoever isn't going to grab some jerk's sticker design and make it into a road sign, no matter what a bunch of anonymous internet users say they should do.

And I'll say it again—spending limited money on signs that say lane splitting is legal isn't the best way to spend that money. We hurt ourselves a lot more than drivers hurt us. I don't know why so many in this thread are having such a hard time grasping that.

 

[ariacode]

There are guidelines and requirements for road signs.

FWIW I think he was originally using "sign" to refer to general iconograpy/branding/messaging for the cause. That's what my comment that he or she responded to was referencing, at least.

And I'll say it again—spending limited money on signs that say lane splitting is legal isn't the best way to spend that money. We hurt ourselves a lot more than drivers hurt us. I don't know why so many in this thread are having such a hard time grasping that.

Just because we hurt ourselves more than drivers hurt us doesn't mean that messaging motorcyclists is the most effective way to spend the money.

 

[Surj]

Just because we hurt ourselves more than drivers hurt us doesn't mean that messaging motorcyclists is the most effective way to spend the money.

Actually, it almost certainly does. I posted about this earlier, as did others, but I'll reiterate.

First, there's the budgetary component. If we're buying media or other assets, we can reach a much larger percentage of motorcyclists with a given amount of money.

Second, by addressing riders, we directly address the group whose behavior is more to blame for crashes.

Changing either behavior's group is difficult, but changing behavior of the smaller group (riders) is more likely, and that group's behavior is also more harmful. Make sense?

So many of the "solutions" in this thread look to drivers to solve our problems—but we can solve more of the problem ourselves, percentage-wise, simply by changing our own behavior.

 

[motoproponent]

Changing either behavior's group is difficult, but changing behavior of the smaller group (riders) is more likely, and that group's behavior is also more harmful. Make sense?

In all of the crashes I've had that involved another vehicle, the crash wasn't my fault. But of all the links in the chain of events leading up to the crash most of them were in my control. Basically even though I was not at fault, the crash could have been avoided if I had done something different.

Drivers run around cocooned in passive safety. Motorcyclists must use active safety (awareness, skill, mechanical and physical condition, and so on).

While I would rather see motorcycling made a more attractive mobility means to all, a safety campaign aimed at motorcyclists would be a bang for the buck way to accomplish safety.

On the flipside, any campaign aimed at motorcyclists will be taken out of context and misquoted to demonstrate the dangers of motorcycling and bolster the arguments of safety-crats.

I would hate for a safety campaign to lead to motorcycles that can only come in safety orange paint, restricted to 65 decibels, and a criminalized aftermarket.

"Murdercycle"
"Donorcycle"

"My daughter/aunt/neice/mom is a nurse and she told me about a guy..... skinned alive roadrash... is now a vegetable"

 

[DReg350]

Thanks Bud and Surj for clarifying the purpose of the funds; and DataDan for providing the stats regarding rider crashes.

I'm no marketing guy, but I think a campaign that starts in the head of a rider, describes what's in the heads of others, shares the reality of rider fatalities through stats, and closes by offering tips about how to stay alive... maybe that might get the point across.

Something along the lines of "Riders Who Loved Riding, and Those Who Loved Them." Pictures or videos of riders riding, racing, commuting, stunting, laughing, communing with other riders all showing the joys of riding; followed by pictures of family and friends standing next to pictures of those lost riders. I guess my hope would be that if riders could see or imagine the devastation their death might cause their loved ones, i.e. parents, wives, husbands, children, brothers, sisters, friends, maybe they might think twice about being a bit safer while riding.

 

[ariacode]

Actually, it almost certainly does. I posted about this earlier, as did others, but I'll reiterate.

First, there's the budgetary component. If we're buying media or other assets, we can reach a much larger percentage of motorcyclists with a given amount of money.

Second, by addressing riders, we directly address the group whose behavior is more to blame for crashes.

Changing either behavior's group is difficult, but changing behavior of the smaller group (riders) is more likely, and that group's behavior is also more harmful. Make sense?

So many of the "solutions" in this thread look to drivers to solve our problems—but we can solve more of the problem ourselves, percentage-wise, simply by changing our own behavior.

There's good points there and maybe even the right conclusion but it assumes that we're not already close to "maxing out" the effect that safety education can have on the motorcycle community.

I happen to think that the riders who would internalize safety messaging have already sought it out.

I also think that there's low-hanging fruit in driver/rider relations that could improve highway motorcycle safety and general driving experience for everyone.

You and Bud and others want to spend the money on rider messaging. That's fine; I'm sure you'll find an effective approach. It's just unfortunate that you have to question the intelligence of anyone that thinks it's worth discussing other approaches as well.

 

[planegray]

I'm sure Budman still has my correspondence from 2014 on the topic of videos. But here's a summary:

• 2-5 minute videos to be posted on YouTube. Don't waste money airing on mass media.
  
  
• Target audience is motorcyclists. We're much easier to reach than drivers. There's only about a million of us statewide and we're generally enthusiastic. There's about 30 million drivers and most couldn't care less about driving well.
  
  
• Specific crash-prevention countermeasures, not generalities. "Ride like you're invisible" is an ever-popular generality. But it can't be taken literally, and exceptions are never mentioned.
  
  
• Active, not passive, countermeasures. Solutions will be in the identification of developing situations and positive actions to avoid them. Not in things like "Wear neon pink leathers and a rotating helmet strobe. That way, they'll always see you and yield right of way."
  
  
• For crashes where another vehicle is involved, show what the other driver sees leading up to the incident. Too often, when motorcyclists hear about a crash, they react with disbelief and outrage if the driver didn't see the motorcycle. Demonstrate that a motorcycle really can disappear in a sea of larger vehicles.
  
  
• Crash prevention, not ticket prevention. Motivate riders by appealing to their instinct for self-preservation, not by telling that that illegal speeds are illegal.
  
  
• Realistic expectations. No happy talk about how safe riding a motorcycle is if you just follow a few simple rules. It's dangerous, and these recommendations are aimed to reduce, but cannot eliminate, that danger.

LIKE

Kazman's video of speed differential was AWESOME... we need more of those, all posted under one name... so they can be easily found

In all of the crashes I've had that involved another vehicle, the crash wasn't my fault. But of all the links in the chain of events leading up to the crash most of them were in my control. Basically even though I was not at fault, the crash could have been avoided if I had done something different. ..........................................

another excellent topic for a vid... risk management is a discipline and can be taught..... pilots have to study it

 

[Surj]

There's good points there and maybe even the right conclusion but it assumes that we're not already close to "maxing out" the effect that safety education can have on the motorcycle community.

I happen to think that the riders who would internalize safety messaging have already sought it out.

Really? So riders who started riding this year have all already done that? Re-entry riders? I think you may be giving motorcyclists—or rather, people—too much credit.

It's just unfortunate that you have to question the intelligence of anyone that thinks it's worth discussing other approaches as well.

Where have I done that?

 

[Hazardous Waste]

Track days for all BARFers?

Another vote here

 

[2nsane]

Shock videos,. Put the images in people's heads. That's sticks.

Second. Don't just focus on street riding also dirt. Emphasis on neck and spine protection.

 

[Marlene996]

How about teaching cagers to use their turn signals correctly so we can be safer while splitting. And reinforce the 3 minimum car pool lane regulation and then maybe it will move fast enough that we don't haveo constantly split.

Last Thursday I had to drive from Davis down to SFO via the Bay bridge and basically from where the 3 or more carpool lane starts near Hercules, all the way through Berkley 90% of cars in the carpool lane had one (driver only). And we are not taking an EV, also your grandmas Toyota.

Motorcycles can only behave so safe while splitting, anticipating traffic, watching speed. Some education can be done for the car drivers also. Maybe explaining the historyof splitting (neccessary for air cooled engines on hot days) and the reason it stays legal. That's my ten cents.

 

[motoproponent]

I agree with the YouTube campaign. There are barfers in the multimedia biz that would probably do really good work for some mild to moderate compensation. Maybe work with City Bike magazine and put up a channel with builds, tips, reviews and safety specifically targeted to Bay Area riders. Featuring a big component of "How to Split" and "Surviving the Commute" with segments focused on specific bridges and tunnels.

Normalize our Moto culture and help lane splitting legislation in WA and NV.

 

[1sicv8]

I agree. 250k is not much. Specially in Government money.

this is very true... I am going to give some numbers below...I am getting my numbers from my personal experience. I work in traffic safety/signs/etc

Public awareness.
Above and beyond the "media" coverage.
I would suggest small "Lane Splitting is Legal" or "Share the Lane" signs along the major traffic zones. Could add them to already existing sign poles.
Keep it yellow and obvious, like the familiar stickers.

I like this idea a lot. I think it would be great. Unfortunately, the cost per sign + labor to install them will not go far. For example, a 12x24 sign would cost around $10 each. 18x30 would be around $18 each. You could probably get them a bit cheaper based on the quantity purchased, but the labor costs will kill you

$250k worth of permanent signs on major interstates or areas of high congested traffic to look twice for motorcyclists during lane changes in rush hours or high density areas

love this idea... just not that feasible

As for the safety vest idea, I believe that is good as well but the cost per vest would be $5-10 each, more if you had something screened on the back

Bud, I would love to help with any ideas on cost and I might be able to help facilitate a better cost. PM me if you wish

For 250k, I would spend it on large billboards in the top 3-5 cities (LA, SD, Sac, ???) that have the most registered moto riders. I do not know how much this would cost though

 

[ariacode]

Really? So riders who started riding this year have all already done that? Re-entry riders? I think you may be giving motorcyclists—or rather, people—too much credit.

I might be . It sounds like you're somewhat banking on the idea that people will seek out these videos though, so our views on this might not be that different.

New riders will see the guidelines in the handbook they have to study, thanks to AB51. If they take CSMP then they'll be exposed to it there, too. Yes, it would be cool if there's a video for the handbook and/or CSMP to point people to.

Anyways, it'd be great if you guys create what turns into the canonical/go-to safe splitting video. Twist of the Wrist seems to be that for general motorcycle skills. Not sure if it's cheesyness helps or hurts its cult-classic status, though

Random thought that came to me while I was crossing the bridge yesterday (sorry for the repeat if it's already been mentioned): Is there a way to get some time on those signs that remind people that texting is dangerous and to buckle up and what not? Wondering if it might be a way to get some messaging in front of commute drivers for free.

Where have I done that?

We hurt ourselves a lot more than drivers hurt us. I don't know why so many in this thread are having such a hard time grasping that.

 

[Surj]

I might be . It sounds like you're somewhat banking on the idea that people will seek out these videos though, so our views on this might not be that different.

I'm actually not a big fan of the videos idea, beyond some of the ideas that already existed before this thread. First, none of my ideas involve videos. Second, I'm a marketer by trade, so I know that it's only in rare cases that content gets magically found or sought out—it's generally distributed via promotion and campaigns, whether explicitly or "virally." If the money is spent on videos, significant money will have to be earmarked for promotion.

 

[philipviana]

I say we take the $250k and set it on fire very publicly to demonstrate to drivers what happens to them when they hit a motorcycle.

 

[Smash Allen]

I say we take the $250k and set it on fire very publicly to demonstrate to drivers what happens to them when they hit a motorcycle.

something something track day rc390 fire joke insert here

 

[budman]

Put these on the sides of all CHP vehicles:

Like

maybe the back though.

I will be collecting for more thought and more of your input in the second 1/2 of this effort.