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Best Slowmo HD footage of initiating leans for teaching body position?

BostonCBRrr

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Hey,

I have a friend who just began riding and I am trying to teach them about body position. I have shown them on the bike a few times, but they are having trouble translating it to their ride.

I have been trying to find a slow motion video that clearly shows when the butt gets off the seat, how the body moves, and what the feet are doing. I think that if they saw the transition in slow motion it would help them apply it.

Does anyone have or know of any good footage I could share with them?
 
Not to be a jerk, but if they just started riding the last thing they should be worrying about is body position.

Focus on using their eyes, smooth controls (brake, throttle, countersteering).

Make sure they're supporting themselves on the bike through their legs, weight on the balls of their feet. Hands should be light on the bars.

You can go pretty damn fast without even thinking about body position and focusing on these things.

If they must think about body position, just shift half a cheek into the direction of the turn, and while on the balls of their feet point their knee to the apex. Make sure all body movements have happened before they start turning or they're more likely to initiate a crash.

It wouldn't hurt to pickup a copy of A Twist of the Wrist II (or search youtube for the abridged version)

Remember this advice was free, and you get what you pay for.
 
I would agree that hanging off is an advanced technique.

And doing while at a 15 degree lean angle looks pretty silly.
 
To answer the question without adding my 2 cents if doing so is necessary at this level, what I do is record the pro races and watch them using the frame by frame feature to see what they are doing.

The super slo mo is great also.

Then again I have a 72 inch rear protection HD tv so I see everything.

I think it is a good idea to watch these guy at that level because you can see what they do and not guess.

What you will notice is that the body really isn't off the bike that much......going in a turn, but more so coming out of a turn. ....when they need to stand it up.

It's all lean angle that gets them to dragging knees and elbows and its corner speed that determines the needed lean angle.

Something that is very hard to see that they are doing is leading the bike into the corner, they are ahead of it.

Also, the inner leg of a turn is used to support the body, not holding onto the bars. Meaning if it is a right turn, the right leg has to support the whole body...or as much as possible, to keep a light grip on the bars. I had knee issues that prevented me from doing this......it really is a chore to ride fast if you can not use your whole body.

Remember, theses guys are carrying a lot of speed in corners and have way more road surface to use then on the street. They do get in a rhythm......something that's not always easy to do safely on the street. Things are happening way faster at the level.

Anyway just somethings I've noticed and it is always a good idea to watch the pros and see how they do it. It keeps me humble.

Another option is Roadrider 2.0 riding school.

Now if it's needed are not........for this rider..not for me to say because....well........it's his life and needs to live it his way..........and not be told how to live his life by others......wasn't there a thread about this........
 
Also, the inner leg of a turn is used to support the body, not holding onto the bars. Meaning if it is a right turn, the right leg has to support the whole body...or as much as possible, to keep a light grip on the bars. I had knee issues that prevented me from doing this......it really is a chore to ride fast if you can not use your whole body.

Err, I'm hoping you mean the outside peg/leg being the support. Don't want to mis-educate people, but it's just like bicycling: the more you weight the OUTSIDE peg, the more you can effectively lean the bike. Maybe it's different with big-boy racing bikes but in my experience on wee little <1000cc bikes (pedals or not), that's what ya do.

Though I don't have a tv so I wouldn't know.
 
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Err, I'm hoping you mean the outside peg/leg being the support. Don't want to mis-educate people, but it's just like bicycling: the more you weight the OUTSIDE peg, the more you can effectively lean the bike. Maybe it's different with big-boy racing bikes but in my experience on wee little <1000cc bikes (pedals or not), that's what ya do.

Though I don't have a tv so I wouldn't know.

Simply wrong and incorrect.

You'll weight the outside peg on standing the bike up. On corner entry and up to the apex, the inside peg takes a load of weight AND the tank takes a load of weight from the outside leg inner thigh, which is where the confusion often arises.

The inner peg gets weighted on turn entry, and the outer leg pushes into the tank, usually with the foot locked into the outer peg, thus giving rise to the idea of weighting the outer peg. However (big however) as you stand the bike up, many riders will put a lot of input into the outer peg to help stand it up. It's complicated.
 
In my experience on both ends of this kind of knowledge sharing and some exposure to fitness training certification, it's really important to make sure the words being used are clear and unambiguous. It's been ages since I was first dipping my toes into performance riding, but I'll never forget the onslaught of terms that seemed clear, but in reality were loaded with double meanings and open-ended interpretations. That motorcycling community around me and on the internet was in constant discourse about the most basic things like physics of motorcycle dynamics, where everyone was passionately advocating "simple, common sense explanations" that were diametrically opposed to one another, did not help.

To wit, what does it mean, when we say "weigh inside/outside peg"? Already there is some debate about whether we are talking about initial steering, turning, or conclusion of a turn. If we are talking about supporting one's weight, what do we instruct about the rest of the rider's body. After all, for a given speed, acceleration, and attitude of the bike, if the rider wishes to modify an input somewhere, they will need to modify another input somewhere else to ensure the forces remain balanced. If all I do is start pushing harder on one footpeg or the other without changing anything else, I will begin to lift myself out of the seat. Is this what we want? How hard should I be pushing? Where should I be on the bike?

Another common phrase that appears related is "get your butt out of the seat". For years (literally!), I took it to mean I had to slide over to the side of the bike as far as possible to achieve proper cornering position. But in reality, it's connected to the whole peg weighing conversation -- we're asking the rider to use their legs as an extension of their suspension and to allow the bike to move more freely under them, as the bike experiences high cornering forces, bumps, or sliding.

It is so much clearer to point out that when we carry more of our weight on the pegs by taking weight off the seat, we are able to let the bike move more freely under the rider. When I think of the bike moving under the rider, much like a horse under a jockey, I get a crystal clear mental image and I no longer concern myself with details of how many pounds I should put on inside or outside footpeg, whist contorting the rest of my body into impossible shapes and forgetting the bigger picture of riding.

Which brings me to the thing I wanted to say to the original poster: make sure you build your skills step by steps and as you do so, always practice your entire skillset starting from fundamentals, onwards. I think it was Keith Code, who likened working on riding skills to building a cathedral -- you must start with the foundation and build each layer on top of a solid base before moving on to the next step. If one forgets these fundamentals or if introducing new skills changes some of our basics, we must go back and address these issues before we attempt to advance forward, or the whole thing will falter.

In my mind, riding skills (not to say anything about situational awareness, physical fitness, and street smarts) can be layered somewhat like this:
1. basic bike operation
2. relaxed joints, smooth inputs
3. vision and lines
4. speed judgment
5. throttle control
6. brake control
7. improved shifting
8. body english

Whenever I go back to the track or if I've just been off the bike a while, I run through all of the above in that order before anything else, spending generous amounts of time to ensure I realign myself. This process of mental maintenance never stops. Code talks about putting professional riders through his own fundamentals before they work on anything else. Be patient and continue reflecting on which aspects of riding feel in need of improvement and work on them.

That said, I think there's a video that could be helpful, given the question. Someone posted this on another thread and I think this video (albeit not in slow motion) does a great job showing some good aspects pertaining to #2 and #3 on the list above:
[youtube]fXWVYtsf43Y[/youtube]
Of note here are:
- elbows
- position of head, implying direction the rider is looking

It's nice to pause the video at different times and compare where the rider is looking and where the bike is going. Don't worry about anything else right now! :)
 
Simply wrong and incorrect.

You'll weight the outside peg on standing the bike up. On corner entry and up to the apex, the inside peg takes a load of weight AND the tank takes a load of weight from the outside leg inner thigh, which is where the confusion often arises.

There are people (I am one) who will use the outside peg as a brace against a hard countersteering input. I have not found weighting the pegs to have much affect on changing a bike's lean angle. I have found that using the outside footpeg as an anchor stabilizes my body when I press hard on the inside bar.

I'm not sure if this is what Kawikiwi was referring to, but people do think about this stuff in different ways.
 
He'll need straight bars and a scotts damper. Clip-on have no place on the street.











:p
 
+10 Jay. Well said. BP can wait. Just get comfortable on the bike and learn how to manipulate the controls.

There are people (I am one) who will use the outside peg as a brace against a hard countersteering input. I have not found weighting the pegs to have much affect on changing a bike's lean angle. I have found that using the outside footpeg as an anchor stabilizes my body when I press hard on the inside bar.

I'm not sure if this is what Kawikiwi was referring to, but people do think about this stuff in different ways.

Funny story: a few years back I had a big problem in left hand corners: the bike would not steer to the apex as easily as it should have. I screwed around with geometry, springs, getting off the bike to the inside more, etc. Then, in one of my early morning races, I got drilled in the side/ hip by a Sadowski and had to race the rest of the day with a right leg that was pretty badly hurt. I was unable to put much weight on it at all. The first left handed turn I almost rode off the inside of the apex. ALL of the tight left handed turns were pure cake and the bike handled like I was told it should have.

Turns out I was unconsciously putting weight (pushing on it with my leg/ foot) on the outside peg and taking weight off the inside peg, thereby taking away lean angle and thus, steering angle. All it took was a damaged leg to understand what my problem was: I was losing steering angle due to putting weight on the outside peg.

Most certainly Andy, weight on either peg affects the lead angle and thus, steering angle of the bike. Of course to be effective, a rider has to be light on the seat and use their quads/ legs to transition, etc. I find that using body weight behind the steering axis is a much more efficient way to initiate a lean angle change as it works with the energy and mass of the motorcycle more effective than anything forward of the steering stem (front wheel, etc). Most certainly, a bar push will initiate a snap on a motorcycle which is great for quick transitions, but the high effort and lack of feel can be problematic on modern sport bikes with a higher displacement/ mass. Certainly useful in some situations though.
 
That said, I think there's a video that could be helpful, given the question. Someone posted this on another thread and I think this video (albeit not in slow motion) does a great job showing some good aspects pertaining to #2 and #3 on the list above:
[youtube]fXWVYtsf43Y[/youtube]
Of note here are:
- elbows
- position of head, implying direction the rider is looking

It's nice to pause the video at different times and compare where the rider is looking and where the bike is going. Don't worry about anything else right now! :)


I'm pretty sure I posted this video. In addition to what you said about it, notice that the rider's butt stays planted. No hanging off. OP's original question can be answered by studying this video without adding the complexity of hanging off. There's a whole lot of bike control, positioning and speed to be learned before going there :cool:
 
There are people (I am one) who will use the outside peg as a brace against a hard countersteering input. I have not found weighting the pegs to have much affect on changing a bike's lean angle. I have found that using the outside footpeg as an anchor stabilizes my body when I press hard on the inside bar.

I'm not sure if this is what Kawikiwi was referring to, but people do think about this stuff in different ways.

I was really meaning to refer to the whole topic of supporting oneself on the bike and I guess I got a bit carried away :ride but I've never really felt like pressing hard on the inner peg did much anyways, I'd just countersteer quicker/harder if I wanted to turn in more (I also weigh like 120lbs so it's not like there's a whole hell of a lot to distribute)

I'll try not to get lost in semantics, and to get back to OP's intended programming; get your friend on their most comfortable road/twisties/the track and try stuff out. Best way to really learn is to do it. I just sit here and type things because I miss riding.
 
There are people (I am one) who will use the outside peg as a brace against a hard countersteering input. I have not found weighting the pegs to have much affect on changing a bike's lean angle. I have found that using the outside footpeg as an anchor stabilizes my body when I press hard on the inside bar.

I'm not sure if this is what Kawikiwi was referring to, but people do think about this stuff in different ways.

Fair enough and true..
 
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