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your URL has this in it

"two-car-households-will-decline"

:rofl

doesn't matter anyways, the 2 vehicles is more than likely one crapper that used to be a daily driver before it was too unreliable to be that. You're trying to make it seem as if most Americans have two newer vehicles. At least that's how what you're saying is coming off to me.

Read the article btw, not surprising really.
 
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your URL has this in it

"two-car-households-will-decline"

:rofl

doesn't matter anyways, the 2 vehicles is more than likely one crapper that used to be a daily driver before it was too unreliable to be that. You're trying to make it seem as if most Americans have two newer vehicles. At least that's how what you're saying is coming off to me.

Read the article btw, not surprising really.

The article supports my point that most households have more than 1 vehicle.

I didn't make any prediction about how that will change. The article doesn't talk about the average fleet age for first or second cars.

The article does support the idea that because the population will urbanize, the need for long distance range will decline.
 
one thing to be cautioned on is that if his parents have an old electrical system in their house/panel. 40amp+ outlets aren't always readily available on a household fuse box. I was somewhat lucky. others have to pay more to upgrade their box...which in the long run is good anyways, but still, now we're in the 2-3k range. still worth it I think, but something to consider.

My rental house has a 35? amp fuse box. Built in 1948.

I doubt anything built after 1990 would have an issue.

I am excited for what will change in the next decade.
 
My rental house has a 35? amp fuse box. Built in 1948.

I doubt anything built after 1990 would have an issue.

I am excited for what will change in the next decade.

-def. would (should?) consider upgrade sooner than later...even if not for the sake of buying an EV

-agreed...unless they're already there or close to maxing out their total allowed amperage (not uncommon). I have a 100amp but was lucky to have a 40amp plug not being used. others won't be so lucky...just trying to present the case for EVs as honest as possible.

-totally agree. living and working in the bay area, I can really, and practically, get behind the EV movement.
 
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one thing to be cautioned on is that if his parents have an old electrical system in their house/panel. 40amp+ outlets aren't always readily available on a household fuse box. I was somewhat lucky. others have to pay more to upgrade their box...which in the long run is good anyways, but still, now we're in the 2-3k range. still worth it I think, but something to consider.

My dad is pretty hardcore into this shit now. 8 solar arrays on the roof, 2 electric vehicles, 2 240v charge stations (one of them is the 40a Leviton he had to get for the Toyota and the other a prototype he's beta testing for some company), 2 PG&E meters...the whole nine yards.
 
The article supports my point that most households have more than 1 vehicle.

I didn't make any prediction about how that will change. The article doesn't talk about the average fleet age for first or second cars.

The article does support the idea that because the population will urbanize, the need for long distance range will decline.

Confused. I'd say most *households* have more than one person and more than one car.

So you have one car with short range, and a normal car (possibly older, possibly not, probably not a total beater). You take that one on road trips.
 
The article supports my point that most households have more than 1 vehicle.

I didn't make any prediction about how that will change. The article doesn't talk about the average fleet age for first or second cars.

The article does support the idea that because the population will urbanize, the need for long distance range will decline.

Just because you live in an urban environment, doesn't mean you'll be willing to have your only car be a short range EV. If I lived in a major city, I would probably not be driving short distances anyway, I'd be taking mass transit. I only own a car for longer trips, i.e., out of the city, etc. In which case, I wouldn't own a short range EV.
 
one thing to be cautioned on is that if his parents have an old electrical system in their house/panel. 40amp+ outlets aren't always readily available on a household fuse box. I was somewhat lucky. others have to pay more to upgrade their box...which in the long run is good anyways, but still, now we're in the 2-3k range. still worth it I think, but something to consider.

Old electrical system?

Right, somewhere there is a home without indoor plumbing, either.

This electric car, and Solar power to run the home and charge the car, is for folks with brains, as in do what is right.
 
Up to 250 from what I've read. Considerably less as the battery starts to get towards full.

That's what High end/Quality chargers do...
They know what the battery will take safely... And they deliver it.

As the battery charges, it wants less.... And less, so that is what it gets.
 
That's what High end/Quality chargers do...
They know what the battery will take safely... And they deliver it.

As the battery charges, it wants less.... And less, so that is what it gets.

The analogy is that you fill a glass of water fast when it is lose to empty, but slow down nearing 100%
 
The United States is home to the largest passenger vehicle market of any country in the world. Overall, there were an estimated 254.4 million registered passenger vehicles in the United States according to a 2007 DOT study.

There are approximately 250 million adults in the U.S. I believe that works out to a little over 1 registered vehicle per adult. And when you adjust out the high income families that often own multiple vehicles per adult, I'd venture that the average vehicle per person in the U.S. for the middle/low income categories is actually below 1.

Do your math by household, not adult.

The truth that I think you're getting at is no one NEEDS electric (or hydrogen), and a business model that assumes that is doomed to failure. That was one of the many fatal flaws of BetterPlace. The Tesla business model assumes that there are enough luxury and soon mid-luxury customers that actually prefer their cars to gas cars to sustain their growth projections. This isn't or shouldn't be an ideological debate. It's simply a question of whether the car from T is better for or more desirable to that customer than the car from B, M, A, etc. It does have it's limitations, but for luxury customers those are minimal and seem to be outweighed by the other benefits. I agree that I don't see Tesla replacing Corollas on the timeline they claim, but I also don't think their sales projections assume that. They assume they'll take a significant chunk of the BMW 3 series/Audi 4 mid luxury market.

Some folks will buy electric only to find that the "fast charging" isn't so fast or common and they can't actually use their new car for their long trips. They'll sell it and go back to gas. Most customers will discover it more than meets their daily range needs, and for the long trips they will rent, fly, or hang on to that old Ford Explorer for that use. It will be a mix. But that mix will constitute millions of vehicles, globally.

I do agree Hydrogen is doomed to failure as a transportation fuel, partially because of what Elon said regarding efficiency and safety (but those are all surmountable tech challenges... of exactly the type Tesla is tackling), but more because of the value prop relative to its competition: diesel hybrid and BEV.
Vs. Diesel Hybrid - identical drive experience, very similar fillup experience (assuming equal availability), very similar environmental impact. The difference does not justify a multi-billion dollar infrastructure buildout.
Vs. BEV - by the time the hydrogen infrastructure could be sufficient to provide a better user experience than gasoline, BEV infrastructure will be far more prolific and charge times will be far shorter (and less relevant... once you cover a daily use, refilling becomes an annoyance whether it's 5 minutes or 30). I don't see there being enough customers remaining to justify the infrastructure for H.
I think if it makes it, it will be for to commercial trucking, like #2 diesel, and even there only because it's regulated... the trucking industry would rather stay on diesel.
 
Old electrical system?

Right, somewhere there is a home without indoor plumbing, either.

This electric car, and Solar power to run the home and charge the car, is for folks with brains, as in do what is right.

:laughing whatever. Not everyone has 40amps spare on an open fuse in their fuse box. maybe on Mars, where you apparently live.
 
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I drove a Model S and it was quick but too massive and floaty. Not very fun, but a decent commuter and practical car I guess.
 
Do your math by household, not adult.

The truth that I think you're getting at is no one NEEDS electric (or hydrogen), and a business model that assumes that is doomed to failure. That was one of the many fatal flaws of BetterPlace. The Tesla business model assumes that there are enough luxury and soon mid-luxury customers that actually prefer their cars to gas cars to sustain their growth projections.

But that's not Tesla's business model at all. Tesla's proclaimed business model is to sell an entry level EV for the masses, not a mid-luxury customer car. They're targeting Toyota Camry/Honda Accord levels of sales within 7-10 years. That is where I see the challenge lying, particularly given all the EV competition they're going to face, much less trying to convince people in ICE cars to go EV.
 
...is for the rich.

Umm Rich can do it... just getting by, regular folks that see a good reason for Not sending a monthly electric power payment to the power company, and the visits to the fill the gas tank station... Can do it.

It's not for just the rich at all.
 
But that's not Tesla's business model at all. Tesla's proclaimed business model is to sell an entry level EV for the masses, not a mid-luxury customer car. They're targeting Toyota Camry/Honda Accord levels of sales within 7-10 years. That is where I see the challenge lying, particularly given all the EV competition they're going to face, much less trying to convince people in ICE cars to go EV.

What Elon proclaims and his actual strategy are never the same thing. You already know this.

The BMW 3 series sells 500k units a year. That's their stretch space. All this talk of a car for the masses is PR, just like "sharing their patents," and "fast-swapping" (<-- double whammy of BS, great PR and also gamed the ZEV credit system).

edit: one wrinkle in what I say is if they ever enter the city car (50mi or less) space. An electric oriented towards the city, like a Smart, built on Teslas battery performance and economics would absolutely obliterate any gas option in every metric including retail cost. If that market ever evolves to significant size and Tesla's brand can absorb such small and low cost vehicles, they could hit some very low costs. But they won't have 300 mile cars at Corolla costs in the predictable future.
 
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...is for the rich.

There are 0% down solar deals out there and EV leases can be as low as $139/ month. Sound like the combination is for the thrifty.

But its OK, you can keep complaining about the oil companies and the utility companies.
 
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Do your math by household, not adult.

The truth that I think you're getting at is no one NEEDS electric (or hydrogen), and a business model that assumes that is doomed to failure.

People buy new cars based on wants, not needs.

People buy for image:
They drive a truck with nothing in the bed or never goes off road.
They buy a sporty car, but never drive it fast.
They buy a Mercedes because it expensive and they are Asian.
They buy a EV or a hybrid because its "green".
 
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