-
There has been a recent cluster of spammers accessing BARFer accounts and posting spam. To safeguard your account, please consider changing your password. It would be even better to take the additional step of enabling 2 Factor Authentication (2FA) on your BARF account. Read more here.
100% Newbie, how do you get them riding a sportbike?
- Thread starter p14
- Start date
stangmx13
not Stan
i def agree w/ u here. however, its my opinion that those common denominators (in order for them to really apply to everyone and every situation) are too simple to be at all helpful in a discussion about technique.
heres a common denominator technique including the control input, as simple as i can get it. of course, assume maintenance throttle and no other input.
- counter steer to initiate lean angle... turn left to lean right
- neutralize steering to maintain required lean angle... while leaned right, turn right until lean stays constant
- maintain lean angle to maintain a given turning radius... maintain bar position
... and thats where i get stuck. i cant even give u a common denominator on how to get out of the turn because there r a few diff ways to do it w/ many diff control inputs, each necessary for a diff situation.
this whole convo just shows us that motorcycling is about adaptation. no one will ever be able to compile a list of instructions for riding a MC properly. hell, thats y we have riding style, a complete distinction between 2 diff riders and how they both ride correct. 2 diff styled riders may do some things exactly the same, but that list is very short... and i doubt theres much pt in writing the list since ull jus go "duh, common sense".
stangmx13
not Stan
i believe in trail-braking, counter-steering to only change my lean angle and nothing else, hanging off only to really push my laptimes down though its not really necessary to make it by everyone in Bgroup, and using the rear brake to stabilize the bike that extra lil bit when i need it.
we almost think alike... but my style is a bit different.
Even this isn't so simple. If I'm riding a cruiser, or a sportbike on wet pavement, and I need to stop quickly, this becomes:
Situation: Full stop as quickly as possible
Controls: Rear brake, front brake
Usage: Apply both brakes and moderate the stopping power to put both tires on the threshold of locking, erring on the side of locking the rear because it's much easier to recover from a locked rear tire. The front brake should be applied gently, to set the suspension and load the front tire, before ramping up the lever pressure. Do not instantly grab a handful, or you'll be on the ground.
If I'm not trying to stop as quickly as possible, like coming up to a traffic light that just turned yellow, it becomes:
Situation: Full stop
Controls: Rear brake or front brake, handlebars
Usage: Apply brake liesurely, moderating the stopping power to gently decelerate at a level consistent with surrounding traffic. The goal is to stop with traffic, not loft a rolling stoppie. Watch traffic around you, particularly behind you, to ensure that anyone who misses the fact that the traffic light is turning red won't hit you. Change or split lanes if necessary to avoid being hit from behind.
If the situation that drives me to stop quickly is really accident avoidance, then the goal is to avoid the accident, not necessarily to stop as quickly as possible.
Situation: Avoid t-boning the car that suddenly turned into your path
Controls: Rear brake, front brake, handlebars
Usage: Apply front brake (sportbike, clean dry pavement) or front/rear brake (cruiser, reduced traction conditions) to stop very quickly, but not as quickly as possible because you might want to swerve instead, and focusing all your attention on stopping means you don't have the ability to look for alternatives. Look for a line that avoids the car, perhaps behind it. Continue braking while countersteering your bike to follow the safest line. If you cannot avoid the accident, threshold brake as above and hope for the best - I personally might decide at the last instant to jump over the car, in the hopes of avoiding a direct impact with my body, but fortunately I've never been in this situation.
Do you see my point? There are a finite number of controls a rider has - front brake, rear brake, clutch, gear shifter, throttle, body positioning, handlebars - but how one uses those controls, and with what specific techniques, depends on the situation.
nobutawoproduce
New member
MSF
Starter Bike
Ride
Sport Bike
Ride
Track school
I agree with all of the above, I am a definite noob compared to most of the previous posters, you can tell by my threads and i started on a 600rr, if you have no experience riding i would suggest a 08 ninja 250 because my friends that i ride with in the twisties began on the 250s and are literally three times faster than me and from my observations they do have a FAR higher learning curve than me. I think this is because they spend more time riding than being scared of their bike. My friends also sold their 250s at decent prices preparing them for their next super sport bikes and they continue to haul ass at a even greater paste!
Starter Bike
Ride
Sport Bike
Ride
Track school
I agree with all of the above, I am a definite noob compared to most of the previous posters, you can tell by my threads and i started on a 600rr, if you have no experience riding i would suggest a 08 ninja 250 because my friends that i ride with in the twisties began on the 250s and are literally three times faster than me and from my observations they do have a FAR higher learning curve than me. I think this is because they spend more time riding than being scared of their bike. My friends also sold their 250s at decent prices preparing them for their next super sport bikes and they continue to haul ass at a even greater paste!
RhythmRider
Still Rhythm Rydin'
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2006
- Location
- Livermore, CA
- Moto(s)
- BMW S1000R,
Suzuki SV650N,
Yamaha YZF-R3
- Name
- Aaron
- BARF perks
- AMA #: 2821744
mmmm... paste...
I do understand what you're saying. I agree that every situation calls for a different degree of use from a given control, but I assert that no matter what the degree of use is, the basic technique for reaching that degree is always the same.
p14
New member
Rhythm, et al,
If I get this correctly (and where I was going) is that there is going to be some correct technique, basic fundamentals (for the rider) and physics that will apply. Others have stated their beliefs in certain skills/techniques, not arguing that, just want to look at if we can isolate some key fundamentals.
Let's look at front brake use as one: what percentage of the braking will they do? I often hear, 70, 80, or more percent. But we see bikes lifting the rear all the time. So, it's a 100 % for dry pavement (maybe not all bikes and all asphalt, some is grippier than others). Not all cruisers or touring bikes for sure, but most any standard and sport bike would. Also, the rear brake if it is locked up means the bike can't be steered, it's going straight. The fingers are more sensitve than the foot, so I'd say that's a pretty strong argument to get really good with the front. Even in the wet, I've heard that guys have lifted the rear.
What do you guys think? For sure there are going to be some bikes that won't be able to do this (rode a full dress Harley a while back, man the front brake was weak), but if we are talking about a sport bike, or even a standard, would this apply?
beginner
New member
The best progression is where you learn a lot, enjoy it, and don't have a crash that you regret.
Last June I was in exactly your position. Here is what I did and if I was starting over I'd do it exactly the same.
My starter bike weighs 240 pounds. If it had been 175 pounds learning would have been faster. For 6 months my moving time was 2 hours every day, about 300 hours for the season. An hour every day was spent in a parking lot, mostly on turning exercises, and most of that on 18'by36' figure 8s which I also used for a 15 minute warmup before riding on roads. The other 150 hours was spent on quiet streets under 30 mph and off-road at even slower speeds.
Along the way I asked myself, am I certain I can maneuver the bike at least as well as my car in an emergency situation. If the answer is no then it's certain I can't. I'm no where near that minimal goal.
What I didn't get in the beginning is the importance of pure motor/balance skill on the bike. Getting that skill and maintaining it requires practice over years and you can never stop practicing or the skills fade. If I didn't like to practice I'd get rid of the bike.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2002
- Location
- SC Mtns
- Moto(s)
- Attack™-ed R1, hybrid S1000rr, XR1200 Q-Ship
- BARF perks
- AMA #: 2815246
BARF has more than enough front vs. rear brake discussions. If you want to continue this portion of the discussion, please do so in another thread. The OP had an innocent question, and a few of you took it way off topic.
To outsiders, some of you come across as know-it-all's with comparatively limited experience. Reading or attending a few trackdays don't make you subject matter experts.
To outsiders, some of you come across as know-it-all's with comparatively limited experience. Reading or attending a few trackdays don't make you subject matter experts.
tzrider
Write Only User
This is a good catch, as the tangent probably went too far. To get this back to the OP's point:
It sounds like people generally feel that braking is one domain of the fundamentals, regardless of whether we all agree on the specifics. What are some others? I'd also be interested to see which skill areas people feel are the most important, and why.
stangmx13
not Stan
ill bite.
clutch modulation, cuz its on of the easiest ways to upset the bike if u do it wrong. it takes years to get a good feel for all the things u can do w/ the clutch and sadly, the "basics" the MSF course are too basic. ive seen way to many street riders screw up simply shifting w/ the clutch so much that their entire body rocks back n forth.
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
Fair enough. This is a thread asking fundimental questions, and brake modulation is not a fundamental technique. I bring it up here because the conversation evolved this direction, not because I'd actually recommend it to the original poster.
And I disagree: I think it's very fair to suggest to newbie posters that grabbing at the front brake will cause a crash. I don't believe I stated that the rear brake would prevent them from locking up the front. I've seen just as many crashes from abruptly applying the front brake than I have from over-applying the rear.
BTW: Data would imply measured, emperical facts. I believe I was clear that my 'data' wasn't data at all.
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
Enchanter: Is your dismissal based on which thread this was posted in, was it based on the confidence levels expressed, or was it based on the passionate discussion of the fringe points of motorcycle control and dynamics?
It takes a good bit of confidence for a rider to get out there and push their own personal boundaries. It takes a huge amount of passion to delve into this level of detail. You seem a little put off and dismissive when people speak with that level of passion and confidence, so I must ask, what would you expect, and what would you prefer?
Last edited:
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
In my experience, the core skill most often missed by newer riders is effective use of their focus. I've ridden with a few people who make huge improvements in their riding when given a few good reference points, or encouraged to look further through a turn.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2002
- Location
- SC Mtns
- Moto(s)
- Attack™-ed R1, hybrid S1000rr, XR1200 Q-Ship
- BARF perks
- AMA #: 2815246
Since you brought it up...
I don't think that every thread needs to degrade into a purely theoretical discussion on the physics of motorcycling. The passion involved in the discussion, or the passion of motorcycling, isn't an issue. That stuff is great.
I've grown tired of people on BARF and in this thread, regurgitating as fact the information they have read, or learned from an 'instructor' at a trackday. Reading something, listening to someone say something, or going out and applying a technique a few times, doesn't necessarily make that person 'knowledgable'. They may have more knowledge, but they aren't necessarily the 'go to guy', nor should they give that impression. These threads turn into a "let me tell you what I (think) I know about this subject", instead of sharing techniques that could assist the readers of the thread. It is really humorous to see the so-called 'new generation of riders' think that they have it all figured out after a couple of years or a few trackdays. Having the knowledge is good, but it's worthless without the skill, judgment, and experience to know how/when to apply it.
Motorcycling is not black and white. It cannot be completely broken down into the mechanics of operation, nor can it be broken into the 'feel' aspect. It is a combination of both. Put another way, it isn't digital, but more analog.
We are going to break this discussion out of this thread, and start another thread. Until then, this one is closed.
tzrider
Write Only User
The braking discussion has been moved to The Last Braking Discussion Thread You'll Ever Need for anyone who would like to continue that conversation.
Let's see what else we can tease out in the way of core skills to get a newbie riding sportbikes in this thread.
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
Thanks TZRider. Can we remove the braking posts from this thread?
tzrider
Write Only User
I think I already did. They're in the other one now.
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
Ooops, yeah. I see now. Sorry, I briefly glanced and noticed a few remnants of that thread following Enchanter's post.