3 motorcyclists killed, 1 injured on Alaska highway

[dowlinginchico]

Dude who was rear ended shares fault in this.

How do you know this? What if he was hit in the rear right and sent spinning into opposing traffic? Details are definitely not there to support this jump to conclusion.

None the less, it is a very good practice to keep the wheels straight while turning left. Never really thought of this till now.

 

[packnrat]

this is why there should be NO left turns allow on any roadway.

special left turn lanes should be the norm at all places for turning left...and built in such a way to try and prevent rear-endears from killing people.

but triple yes keep your wheels pointed in the flow of your traffic. NOT into the path of on coming traffic. till you can proceed safely.



.

 

[firstbuell]

RIP riders, heal up soon wounded rider.

This is also a teaching moment: whenever you are waiting to make a left turn always maintain the steering wheels directly forward so that if you are rear-ended, your vehicle is pushed forward and not diagonally into oncoming traffic. By doing this you protect yourself and opposing traffic.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

was taught this basic safety practice at....Traffic School, no kiddin'



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Absolutely shitty, but how close together did they have to be riding for all four of them to be taken out by one car?

sounds like a second teaching moment


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how awful for the 4 riders themselves, families....man!

R.I.P. riders

 

[Aluisious]

Do not turn your wheels left when waiting to make a left turn in a car. The reason is this very scenario.

Dude who was rear ended shares fault in this.

No, not really.

If the guy who got hit from behind "shares fault" then so do 4 riders who all managed to hit one car. Get over the blame witch hunting.

 

[ilikefood]

I think the wheel thing is a great recommendation, and not something I had ever even thought of, but...so is not riding so close to your riding buddies so that you can't come to a full stop before hitting them should they go down or get hit, etc.

Unless that F-150 was hurtled hard directly in their direction at a shallow angle, there is no reason it should have taken out four bikes unless they were riding way too close together or they just had the shittiest luck imaginable.

No, they didn't have to ride close together at all. Keep in mind that a following distance that would work fine for a situation where the motorcycle in front of you brakes hard, will be totally insufficient for a situation where the motorcycle in front of you is in a head-on collision and therefore stops in an instant. So you could have a 2-second or 3-second following distance and that's totally reasonable, but when the bike in front is violently stopped in a couple feet of space, you'll still hit it hard.

 

[ilikefood]

this is why there should be NO left turns allow on any roadway.

special left turn lanes should be the norm at all places for turning left...and built in such a way to try and prevent rear-endears from killing people.

It works like this in New Jersey, on all main roads. There are no left turns. Instead, there are "jug handle" turns (or "Jersey turns"), where you exit the road right, and then join up with the crossing road, and wait at the red lights. That's actually very annoying because you end up waiting at red lights A LOT. I don't know how much safer that really is. Rather than re-configuring our entire infrastructure, it would be better to put in place better driver education and MUCH stricter licensing. I guess both of those options are unlikely though...

 

[Aluisious]

You can do a lot of braking in 3 seconds. Yeah you might still hit the object, but 2 seconds on the brakes can make a fatal crash survivable.

 

[ilikefood]

No, not really.

If the guy who got hit from behind "shares fault" then so do 4 riders who all managed to hit one car. Get over the blame witch hunting.

No, the guy who turned his wheel left while waiting to turn left clearly shares blame. The riders could have been just on two bikes. They didn't have to do anything wrong to both hit the truck.

 

[ilikefood]

You can do a lot of braking in 3 seconds. Yeah you might still hit the object, but 2 seconds on the brakes can make a fatal crash survivable.

You won't scrub that much speed in 2 seconds. You can maybe go from 60 to 30, and it will still be a fatal wreck.

 

[Aluisious]

If a rider can't do 60 to 20 in 2 seconds they should practice hard braking.

Also, 3 seconds is a long time to steer the bike to somewhere that is not a truck.

I sound like Lou.

 

[budman]

Godspeed riders

Heal up #4.

Very sad and there are some families and friends hurting tonight.

Good tip Lex.

 

[anytwowilldo]

RIP riders, heal up soon wounded rider.

This is also a teaching moment: whenever you are waiting to make a left turn always maintain the steering wheels directly forward so that if you are rear-ended, your vehicle is pushed forward and not diagonally into oncoming traffic. By doing this you protect yourself and opposing traffic.

Lex

^^^This.

RIP Riders and for the sole survivor, get better soon.

 

[DataDan]

The crash happened here:

[gmap]<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=61.551750,+-149.206666&aq=&sll=37.269174,-119.306607&sspn=9.000704,13.293457&ie=UTF8&ll=61.55175,-149.206666&spn=0.001316,0.003245&t=h&z=14&output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=61.551750,+-149.206666&aq=&sll=37.269174,-119.306607&sspn=9.000704,13.293457&ie=UTF8&ll=61.55175,-149.206666&spn=0.001316,0.003245&t=h&z=14" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>[/gmap]

The motorcycles were westbound (nominally SB), and the pickup was eastbound (nominally NB) waiting to turn into the driveway on the north side of the road.

I couldn't find a posted speed limit, so it is presumably 55mph. At that speed, it would take 250ft or so for a rider of average skill to react and stop. That's 3 seconds travel time at 55. So if you're riding along and 100 feet ahead of you the oncoming pickup stopped waiting to turn is suddenly forced across your lane, you're SOL. If the rider behind you is following at a full 2-second interval, they will probably have enough space to stop. If they're following 1 second behind, they're SOL too.

That's a lot of speculation and guesses, but the bottom line is that very ordinary circumstances any one of us might find ourselves in made this an unavoidable crash.


BTW, this is the same kind of crash that injured a Chula Vista motorcop on a training ride in rural San Diego County one year ago (discussed on BARF). In that case it was a texting 17yo girl, not a 19yo man who slammed into the stopped vehicle (and injuries were not fatal).


And back in the day, keeping the wheels pointed straight while waiting to turn was a well known practice taught in driver's ed. I've been doing it for fifty fucking years.

 

[wazzuFreddo]

No, not really.

If the guy who got hit from behind "shares fault" then so do 4 riders who all managed to hit one car. Get over the blame witch hunting.

Keep your wheels straight until ready to turn.

Looking out for people with their wheels already turned to the left is a good way to spot boneheads that are likely to pull out in front of you as well.

 

[Aluisious]

It's real easy to type out "this guy is partially to blame for killing 3 people" on the internet. If you wouldn't go look them in the eye and tell them they killed 3 people by having their wheels turned while stopped, then just chill.

 

[wazzuFreddo]

It's real easy to type out "this guy is partially to blame for killing 3 people" on the internet. If you wouldn't go look them in the eye and tell them they killed 3 people by having their wheels turned while stopped, then just chill.

getting all dramatic about it doesn't change that it was a contributing factor.

an accident, a momentary lapse in judgement, sure, but still a contributing factor.

 

[louemc]

If a rider can't do 60 to 20 in 2 seconds they should practice hard braking.

Also, 3 seconds is a long time to steer the bike to somewhere that is not a truck.

I sound like Lou.

I wish it was universal to sound like Lou, instead of so rare it is like never sound like Lou...

Lou is Alive, after 60 years of seeing situations developing on the roads, and...modifying my space and time
(speed and location), and turning that potential collision, into a nothing happened.

I'd like everyone to stay alive, and un-mangled.

 

[ThumperX]

Three vagabond ghosts forever camped on the highway, at least 2 survivors battling nightmares and a life in hell.
Godspeed you lost three, rapid healing and coming to terms with this insanity you two firsthand survivors.

Unimaginable to be sitting at the wheel with no control of the next instant

RIP lost riders
...long may you run

 

[Junkie]

I think the wheel thing is a great recommendation, and not something I had ever even thought of, but...so is not riding so close to your riding buddies so that you can't come to a full stop before hitting them should they go down or get hit, etc.

Unless that F-150 was hurtled hard directly in their direction at a shallow angle, there is no reason it should have taken out four bikes unless they were riding way too close together or they just had the shittiest luck imaginable.

Even at a reasonable following distance it's going to be impossible to stop if the person in front of you instantly stops (meaning is stopped by something, rather than the brakes). http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/11/08/understand-stopping-distance/ puts stopping distance from 60mph at 195ft including reaction time. http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/268/6916/Motorcycle-Article/2010-Yamaha-YZF-R1-Comparison-Street.aspx claims that an R1 will stop from 60 in 133ft. That's with a skilled, prepared rider and on dry, clean pavement.

I know that MSF says 1 second spacing if staggered, 2 second spacing if in line - and at 70 that's around 100ft/200ft. On the other hand, I very rarely see groups spaced that far apart. If you do that you end up with cars cutting in. Even on sportbikes I see lots of riders who space themselves at 20', and most are under 50'.

No, they didn't have to ride close together at all. Keep in mind that a following distance that would work fine for a situation where the motorcycle in front of you brakes hard, will be totally insufficient for a situation where the motorcycle in front of you is in a head-on collision and therefore stops in an instant. So you could have a 2-second or 3-second following distance and that's totally reasonable, but when the bike in front is violently stopped in a couple feet of space, you'll still hit it hard.

This.

If a rider can't do 60 to 20 in 2 seconds they should practice hard braking.

Also, 3 seconds is a long time to steer the bike to somewhere that is not a truck.

I sound like Lou.

The article I linked claims 133' for an R1 to get from 60 to 0. If acceleration is constant, that means a stopping time of 3.46 seconds. To stop in 2 seconds from 60mph, you're accelerating at 44ft/s^2 or 1.37g. That results in a stopping distance of 88ft. I don't think that's possible.

And those numbers are all without any reaction time.

The crash happened here:

[gmap]<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=61.551750,+-149.206666&aq=&sll=37.269174,-119.306607&sspn=9.000704,13.293457&ie=UTF8&ll=61.55175,-149.206666&spn=0.001316,0.003245&t=h&z=14&output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=61.551750,+-149.206666&aq=&sll=37.269174,-119.306607&sspn=9.000704,13.293457&ie=UTF8&ll=61.55175,-149.206666&spn=0.001316,0.003245&t=h&z=14" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>[/gmap]

The motorcycles were westbound (nominally SB), and the pickup was eastbound (nominally NB) waiting to turn into the driveway on the north side of the road.

I couldn't find a posted speed limit, so it is presumably 55mph. At that speed, it would take 250ft or so for a rider of average skill to react and stop. That's 3 seconds travel time at 55. So if you're riding along and 100 feet ahead of you the oncoming pickup stopped waiting to turn is suddenly forced across your lane, you're SOL. If the rider behind you is following at a full 2-second interval, they will probably have enough space to stop. If they're following 1 second behind, they're SOL too.

That's a lot of speculation and guesses, but the bottom line is that very ordinary circumstances any one of us might find ourselves in made this an unavoidable crash.


BTW, this is the same kind of crash that injured a Chula Vista motorcop on a training ride in rural San Diego County one year ago (discussed on BARF). In that case it was a texting 17yo girl, not a 19yo man who slammed into the stopped vehicle (and injuries were not fatal).


And back in the day, keeping the wheels pointed straight while waiting to turn was a well known practice taught in driver's ed. I've been doing it for fifty fucking years.

At 2 second spacing, the rider behind has around 260ft to stop. Based on your numbers that's still pretty damn close, although even with an impact it's likely survivable.

 

[Archimedes]

No, they didn't have to ride close together at all. Keep in mind that a following distance that would work fine for a situation where the motorcycle in front of you brakes hard, will be totally insufficient for a situation where the motorcycle in front of you is in a head-on collision and therefore stops in an instant. So you could have a 2-second or 3-second following distance and that's totally reasonable, but when the bike in front is violently stopped in a couple feet of space, you'll still hit it hard.

And I would almost totally disagree with this. I never follow another motorcyclist in a manner where I don't have a solid chance of stopping if he stops dead. And if you stretch out 4 motorcyclists in that manner, the chance of catching the third and fourth up in that mess should be very low. I recognized that we'll never know exactly what happened in this awful situation, but I'd bet a lot of money that they were either riding very close together or it was a freaky bad luck crash. The fact that 90%+ of the groups of riders I see on the road ride wayyy too close together would lead me to assume the former is more likely the case here.