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800 cc air cooled in 650 twins?
- Thread starter abogado
- Start date
Lohmeyer
New member
abogado, mostly I just wanted to say that people expect too much and then get pretty abusive when they don't get what they want (not you, but some others in the past). I saw a lot of that last year when this discussion erupted about big twins in FIV. If people want a rules change to a class, they really need to stop the name calling and present good arguments (backed with data!) for the change, not just say "hey, wouldn't this be cool" and then get upset when other's disagree.
Lohmeyer,
You are right people should put together cogent arguments about why their position has merit, and my intention was not to slam anyone.
It wasnt my intention to reopen this argument, rather, I saw my suggestion as much simpler, i.e. bumping the displacement for two valve twins in 650 twins up to 800 cc's, based on the fact that the stock 800 cc (air cooled) ducs currently only had one class that they might (and it a real big might) be competitive in, and that is Formula IV (where they are already legal). This suggestion was based on the fact that Manufacture listed dry wieght and hp are very comperable for the sv's and the 800 ducs. I cant really think of any other bikes that this would allow in. However, this change is not really just to allow "my" bike in, but rather, I think it is just an update on the previous rule. It was also based on my assumption that the current rule, which allowed 750 cc two valvers was meant to allow bikes such as the 750 ducs to run in this class. As there are no longer any new 750 cc ducs currently in the US, because the cc's on this segement of ducati's lineup is now 800 cc's, this change will just allow the class accept the kind of bikes it origionally was intended to take.
I am actually in agreement with those people who want to make sure that the buells and the big ducati air cooled bikes race in a different class. both the lightnings and the 1000 cc ducs produce a disproportionate amount of horsepower.
That being said, they people that are now running the buells in formula IV are following the rules...
You are right people should put together cogent arguments about why their position has merit, and my intention was not to slam anyone.
It wasnt my intention to reopen this argument, rather, I saw my suggestion as much simpler, i.e. bumping the displacement for two valve twins in 650 twins up to 800 cc's, based on the fact that the stock 800 cc (air cooled) ducs currently only had one class that they might (and it a real big might) be competitive in, and that is Formula IV (where they are already legal). This suggestion was based on the fact that Manufacture listed dry wieght and hp are very comperable for the sv's and the 800 ducs. I cant really think of any other bikes that this would allow in. However, this change is not really just to allow "my" bike in, but rather, I think it is just an update on the previous rule. It was also based on my assumption that the current rule, which allowed 750 cc two valvers was meant to allow bikes such as the 750 ducs to run in this class. As there are no longer any new 750 cc ducs currently in the US, because the cc's on this segement of ducati's lineup is now 800 cc's, this change will just allow the class accept the kind of bikes it origionally was intended to take.
I am actually in agreement with those people who want to make sure that the buells and the big ducati air cooled bikes race in a different class. both the lightnings and the 1000 cc ducs produce a disproportionate amount of horsepower.
That being said, they people that are now running the buells in formula IV are following the rules...
JayJ
New member
All right ontherearwheel! Ya got me! I was too damn lazy to fetch the rule book.
The point I was trying to make is simply that Shawn had to make a pass on the last straight in order win. Do you think a 900ss would be competitive? Lohmeyer is right by wanting to see "arguments backed with data." What do you have for us?
Abogado is just asking for 800cc Ducs in 650 twins. It seems to me we haven't seen a podium finish from a 750cc 2 valve Duc in quite some time. Maybe if he and other 800 Duc riders would start riding FIV we would have some data to support a change in 650 twins. After that we could evaluate whether we should add 2-valve 900cc bikes in FIV.
Did everyone notice John Dakar's 1:57.007 lap on a Suzuki 650?
Is that a mistake, or do we have a new lap record on a 650 twin?
The point I was trying to make is simply that Shawn had to make a pass on the last straight in order win. Do you think a 900ss would be competitive? Lohmeyer is right by wanting to see "arguments backed with data." What do you have for us?
Abogado is just asking for 800cc Ducs in 650 twins. It seems to me we haven't seen a podium finish from a 750cc 2 valve Duc in quite some time. Maybe if he and other 800 Duc riders would start riding FIV we would have some data to support a change in 650 twins. After that we could evaluate whether we should add 2-valve 900cc bikes in FIV.
Did everyone notice John Dakar's 1:57.007 lap on a Suzuki 650?
Is that a mistake, or do we have a new lap record on a 650 twin?ontherearwheel
New member
What data was used to determine the Buell was suited for FIV? How was it determined the buell can be competitive and the 900ss can not be? Lap times don;t cut it cause they are too rider dependent.
Only numbers that ever have been talked about were HP numbers. I stock 900ss makes about the same or a little more than a stock sv650.
Weight wise, they are about even.
So, what advantage does a 900ss have that will make it a class domineering bike?
Yes I know a 900ss can be competitive in FIV and no one can say it won't be.
I did write to the board and Ross Wells about my interest and support for a 900ss in FIV. Guess what, I never heard a word back from either.
I'd like these folks take a stcok 900ss and go play out in Open Twins. Unless you have done it, unless you have spent seat time in a 900s on the track....you don't have a basis for alot of the assumptions being made.
Only numbers that ever have been talked about were HP numbers. I stock 900ss makes about the same or a little more than a stock sv650.
Weight wise, they are about even.
So, what advantage does a 900ss have that will make it a class domineering bike?
Yes I know a 900ss can be competitive in FIV and no one can say it won't be.
I did write to the board and Ross Wells about my interest and support for a 900ss in FIV. Guess what, I never heard a word back from either.
I'd like these folks take a stcok 900ss and go play out in Open Twins. Unless you have done it, unless you have spent seat time in a 900s on the track....you don't have a basis for alot of the assumptions being made.
afmotorsports
New member
OMG, let it go! Nobody forced you to buy the sport touring model from Ducati and they DID have a more competitive model if you really wanted to race their brand of bikes... You don't see Honda-loyal racers show up on VFRs and then try to squeeze into F4... I honestly cannot understand why someone would spend years and years bringing a knife to a gunfight - given the tens of thousands of dollars spent on entry fees, tires, travel, motels, food, repairs, etc., wasn't there a point where sheer frustration nearly led you to setting your own bike on fire??! I raced a 929 in 2001 against the new Gixxer 1000s and was getting my butt kicked so hard on straightaways, I was ready to ghost ride the POS off a cliff!!
Then again, this gives me an idea: Goldwings in 250 Production!!!
I bet I could do 2:25s at T-hill on one of those beasts, stereo blasting and sparks flying off the exhaust... C'mon, who's with me?? 
Then again, this gives me an idea: Goldwings in 250 Production!!!
I bet I could do 2:25s at T-hill on one of those beasts, stereo blasting and sparks flying off the exhaust... C'mon, who's with me??
afmotorsports
New member
Bring it on - I'll be "backing it in" with style, baby:
Anybody got a Van Halen tape lying around?
And I'll bolt on some dual purpose "frame sliders":
Who's yo' daddy????
Anybody got a Van Halen tape lying around?
And I'll bolt on some dual purpose "frame sliders":
Who's yo' daddy????
Alex,
With all respect, the fact that sv's race at all cuts against what you say. The whole point of race classes is to bring knives to knife fights. Why not race sv's against GSXR 1000's? Not my fault if someone buys a bike that was origionally designed for city riding...those sv'ers should just sack up and deal with it and buy a "real" race bike.
At the same time, you have a point about the goldwings in 250 produ...allowances really shouldnt be made for some bikes. Duc st2-4's, Honda Super chickens, TL's, the old monsters with crappy frames...harley sportsters, etc. ad. nasuem. The bikes just arnt up to racing...now sv's and the duc ss bikes, and the new buells' ARE. They make nice race platforms....but that doesnt make them equal, rather, lets think about how we can develop race classes that will make the racing fun...
But think about it. Are you against a 1000 cc vtwin racing in 750 superbike? Probably not. Why? Because engine displacement should not be the last word in establishing racing classes. Rather, it should be about comperable machines racing each other...within reason. It is not an exact science, rather it is one that should be re-evaluated from time to time.
You get engines with similar capabilites, and create classes around that criteria. It is not anyone elses problem whether honda makes a better engine in liter bikes or if kawi makes a better frame (just hypothetically, im not suggestion this is the case). That is what picking a bike is all about, and the competition between manufactureres benifits us all...
A twin 1000 cc engine wont produce the hp of a 1000 cc 4 cylinder. Does that mean we shouldnt race 1000 cc v twins? Or does that mean that 1000 cc v-twins should only race against each other? Or rather, should it be as it is now...with fat ass pigs like my ex-rc racing against 750's in most orgs...I have to deal with the weight, lower rev capabilities, and often lower hp numbers, and get the benifit of more torque and beter power delivery. THe engines are similar...but I wouldnt suggest that, now that 600 4 cylinders are making so much power, that we should race them instead. Why? Because it is not our fault that the manufaturers are not pushing out better v-twin race bikes....
Plus, everyone knows all you need to do is get the high mount exhaust for the goldwing and it is a kick ass race machine...
With all respect, the fact that sv's race at all cuts against what you say. The whole point of race classes is to bring knives to knife fights. Why not race sv's against GSXR 1000's? Not my fault if someone buys a bike that was origionally designed for city riding...those sv'ers should just sack up and deal with it and buy a "real" race bike.
At the same time, you have a point about the goldwings in 250 produ...allowances really shouldnt be made for some bikes. Duc st2-4's, Honda Super chickens, TL's, the old monsters with crappy frames...harley sportsters, etc. ad. nasuem. The bikes just arnt up to racing...now sv's and the duc ss bikes, and the new buells' ARE. They make nice race platforms....but that doesnt make them equal, rather, lets think about how we can develop race classes that will make the racing fun...
But think about it. Are you against a 1000 cc vtwin racing in 750 superbike? Probably not. Why? Because engine displacement should not be the last word in establishing racing classes. Rather, it should be about comperable machines racing each other...within reason. It is not an exact science, rather it is one that should be re-evaluated from time to time.
You get engines with similar capabilites, and create classes around that criteria. It is not anyone elses problem whether honda makes a better engine in liter bikes or if kawi makes a better frame (just hypothetically, im not suggestion this is the case). That is what picking a bike is all about, and the competition between manufactureres benifits us all...
A twin 1000 cc engine wont produce the hp of a 1000 cc 4 cylinder. Does that mean we shouldnt race 1000 cc v twins? Or does that mean that 1000 cc v-twins should only race against each other? Or rather, should it be as it is now...with fat ass pigs like my ex-rc racing against 750's in most orgs...I have to deal with the weight, lower rev capabilities, and often lower hp numbers, and get the benifit of more torque and beter power delivery. THe engines are similar...but I wouldnt suggest that, now that 600 4 cylinders are making so much power, that we should race them instead. Why? Because it is not our fault that the manufaturers are not pushing out better v-twin race bikes....
Plus, everyone knows all you need to do is get the high mount exhaust for the goldwing and it is a kick ass race machine...
kneedrag
Member
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2002
TWF said:
Let's get something straight. The Buell "guys" didn't do anything. A proposal was made to allow Ducs and Buells into F4, by someone who owns a Duc. I had nothing to do with the original proposal.
Next came a BIG stink on how someone like my team could get a factory Xtreme bike. People started throwing out all kinds of false info about HP numbers. I, like an idiot, took some of the BS being thrown around personally. Like the Buell I ran in '03 was some 140hp monster.
So since it was already on the table, I (not the Buell "guys") put together a letter in support of having Buells in F4. I had Vallejo stop building our new XB for Open Twins in the off chance we could get into the F4 class. By the time the new rules came out we were too late to build a smaller than expected motor by Buttonwillow. Harley/Buell of Vallejo had every intention on running the Open twins class this season.
They're not pissy because they can't compete in Open Twins, ZORAN STOP SAYING THAT! If we look back at '03 and the way the points played out I believe we could have taken the championship if there wasn't a throw away race. Rules are rules. Did I ever complain? The team was disappointed, as was I, but to be quite honest the better rider, Bawden, won. When he actually finished a race, he kicked our butts.
Some people are making this out to be some covert operation to throw the club into chaos. The Harley/Vallejo people are some of the nicest people I've ever come in contact with, so get off this sinister characterisation of them. They could care less which class they run in as long as they can run.
So if you're going to throw desparaging remarks around, point them at me for sending in the letter of support. Better yet why doesn't everyone concerned come over and take a gander at the work of art these fine people worked so hard to put together. They are pretty proud of it, as am I.
In conclusion Zoran please refer to Shawn as the one who fucked up the F4 class not the "buel guys". They only built the bike to the specs I gave them. No whining, no animosity, no pitching a fit.
ontherearwheel
New member
afmotorsports said:OMG, let it go! Nobody forced you to buy the sport touring model from Ducati and they DID have a more competitive model if you really wanted to race their brand of bikes... You don't see Honda-loyal racers show up on VFRs and then try to squeeze into F4... I honestly cannot understand why someone would spend years and years bringing a knife to a gunfight - given the tens of thousands of dollars spent on entry fees, tires, travel, motels, food, repairs, etc., wasn't there a point where sheer frustration nearly led you to setting your own bike on fire??! I raced a 929 in 2001 against the new Gixxer 1000s and was getting my butt kicked so hard on straightaways, I was ready to ghost ride the POS off a cliff!!
Then again, this gives me an idea: Goldwings in 250 Production!!!
With this logic, then 400 and 650 racers in FIV should just sell their rides and get a buell then huh.
afmotorsports
New member
abogado said:
Actually... no, it doesn't! The 650 Twins class goes back at least a couple of decades and was populated by Honda 650 Hawks before the SVs came on the scene.
The point I was making is that a racer that KNOWINGLY buys a bike that is not even remotely competitive in their normal displacement class should not expect special treatment in the AFM. I'm obviously just being silly with the "Goldwing racing", but if someone actually showed up with such a beast should we really consider allowing them to race in a smaller displacement class just because they didn't make the wisest choice for a racebike?? We also had someone complaining last year that we should allow the Ducati Monsters to run in F4 - why in God's name would someone buy a Monster for a racebike?? If someone just wants to be "unique and different", good for them - I hear trackdays willl let you ride just about anything you want... However, the AFM has some pretty well defined classes and I don't have a lot of patience for riders that decide to purchase something "unique" and then try to shoehorn it into the AFM structure. (sorry if I come off a little grumpy - I'm at home, sick as a dog)
kneedrag said:
Shawn,that was more shot at bord than anything.
I have nothing to say against you or Valejo Harley guys.you guys are doing nothing wrong and I wish you best in rest of season.
however nothing will chnage my mind and opinion on bord decision.
Lohmeyer
New member
I'm 99.99% sure it was a dBcom fluke. It happens a lot. You can usually trust the per rider lap time sheets, but the overall results are sometimes screwed up.
Shawn, regarding the Buell/Vallejo guys bashing, don't take it personally. I think everyone knows you are on the up and up and appreciate the effort that went into your bike. The more I've learned here, the more I think it's pretty cool too.
Shit, I forgot about the old hawks! I think it just pushes things back a bit though. Does it matter if it was a hawk class before? The same logic applies.
Why should 650 twins not run in with the 600 I4's? Or even 750 I4's? Are cc's the end all and be all? If there were no twins classes, and no allowances for twins running down a class, wouldnt GSXR 600 owners be right in saying that it's not their fault because someone wants to shoehorn their specialty bike into this class? If this was the case, people would be saying "why the hell would anyone want to race sv's?"
No, it only seems logical because someone decided twins should have their own classes. Im OK with that! It only seems logical to race 1000cc v-twins in 750cc because those allowances have already been made. Im OK with that!
Should air cooled bikes run in the same displacement classes w/ water cooled? No, they can rev higher, and make more horsepower. Can they still make good race bikes (unlike a goldwing?) YES!
What do you have instead with the special classes for sv's? Really fun racing! What do you get by allowing 1000 cc twins to run down a class? More good racing...
Why should 650 twins not run in with the 600 I4's? Or even 750 I4's? Are cc's the end all and be all? If there were no twins classes, and no allowances for twins running down a class, wouldnt GSXR 600 owners be right in saying that it's not their fault because someone wants to shoehorn their specialty bike into this class? If this was the case, people would be saying "why the hell would anyone want to race sv's?"
No, it only seems logical because someone decided twins should have their own classes. Im OK with that! It only seems logical to race 1000cc v-twins in 750cc because those allowances have already been made. Im OK with that!
Should air cooled bikes run in the same displacement classes w/ water cooled? No, they can rev higher, and make more horsepower. Can they still make good race bikes (unlike a goldwing?) YES!
What do you have instead with the special classes for sv's? Really fun racing! What do you get by allowing 1000 cc twins to run down a class? More good racing...
Terry Parsley
New member
100 HP Stock?
Sporsters, and Buells come in two different engine sizes. The Motor Company (H-D Buell) list the stock HP at the crank. Based on my three years on our dyno, 883 and 1200 H-D Sporsters make approx low 60's to high 70's at the rear wheel. Buells come as XB9's and XB12's making high 70's and high 80's rear wheel HP?
Sporsters, and Buells come in two different engine sizes. The Motor Company (H-D Buell) list the stock HP at the crank. Based on my three years on our dyno, 883 and 1200 H-D Sporsters make approx low 60's to high 70's at the rear wheel. Buells come as XB9's and XB12's making high 70's and high 80's rear wheel HP?